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Blu-Ray Attacks Microsoft, Microsoft Bites Back 300

Posted by Zonk from the mind-the-teeth dept.
QT writes "Ars Technica has been following this week's next-gen DVD dramas closely. First, there's extensive coverage of the reasons why Microsoft backed HD-DVD, which was primarily inspired by mandatory support for copying discs to computers. The BDA, however, countered with an attack on Microsoft's reasons, and Microsoft returned fire. Richard E. Doherty, Microsoft's head of the media entertainment technology convergence group, said that 50GB Blu-ray disc are in fact many years away. Is MS playing games, or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?" From the article: "HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it's well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs." We previously discussed this topic when the announcement came out.
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Blu-Ray Attacks Microsoft, Microsoft Bites Back More

Blu-Ray Attacks Microsoft, Microsoft Bites Back

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  • sure (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:09AM (#13683645)
    "My disk is bigger"
    "no mine is"
    "No MY disk is bigger"
    "Your disk doesnt exist"
    "No yours doesnt"
    "Yes it does"

    since when is this a cross between kids arguing and politics?

  • HD DVD sounds better to me (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Delphiki ( 646425 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:09AM (#13683648)
    I started out thinking Blu Ray would be the way to go but after reading some of the articles on Ars about it recently, I'm thinking HD DVD would be better. If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition, and it could happen soon, from the sounds of things. Of course, things might not be as easy as they sound. Honestly, I don't care about the extra space. I use an external HD for backups, not my DVD burner. And I don't care how many discs my movies/tv shows come on. So I have to change it once an hour, I need to get up once in a while anyway.

    • Re:HD DVD sounds better to me (Score:5, Interesting)

      by garcia ( 6573 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:21AM (#13683724)
      I use an external HD for backups, not my DVD burner.

      It's easier to replicate DVDs and store them in multiple locations than it is to have multiple external HDs. For my weekly backups everything goes to three distinct geographical locations via the Internet. I also have an external HD that gets stuff daily. If necessary (no network connections) I would burn DVDs and mail or hand deliver them. Much easier than mailing HDs. YMMV.

      And I don't care how many discs my movies/tv shows come on. So I have to change it once an hour, I need to get up once in a while anyway.

      I can't sit through an entire season (or usually even an entire disc) w/o moving but that's not why I'd like to see more shows on less discs. I don't like how much room my DVD sets take up in my rack. If I could get an entire season on one or two discs instead of six or more that would make me a happier camper.

      • What's the point? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by solomonrex ( 848655 )
        What we all want is itunes for TV and movies, and a 1 tb. server with wireless access to our 1 mm. thick TV screen in our basement so that we can 'own' our movies/tv shows instead of 'renting' them, so our children can go, "What's this Mash thing? Is it about potatoes?"

    • What a surprise (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Wow! A proprietary Sony format isn't being widley adopted? I'm shocked!

    • Re:HD DVD sounds better to me (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nutshell42 ( 557890 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:19AM (#13684237) Journal
      If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition, and it could happen soon, from the sounds of things.

      If they make those hybrid discs they're gonna cost as much as it would to buy both the DVD and the HD release. Why? Because that's the way it's done in the eyes of the movie industry.

      When I first heard about the mandatory "managed copy" feature for HD-DVD I thought "yeah, right" but I have to admit there was this tiny little bit of hope somewhere in the more naive parts of my brain. No more:

      Jordi Ribas, director of technical strategy for the Windows Digital Media Division, told me that while the feature is mandatory, the studios will have the option of charging for it

      Buy HD-DVD, much better than Blu-Ray, get two, pay two!

      Oh, and I no longer trust Ars's coverage since they had the two page HD-DVD ad disguised as article on their frontpage (yes, they added a disclaimer later but I don't read Ars for press releases disclaimer or not)

      • Re:HD DVD sounds better to me (Score:4, Interesting)

        by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:05AM (#13684755) Homepage
        If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition, and it could happen soon, from the sounds of things.

        If they make those hybrid discs they're gonna cost as much as it would to buy both the DVD and the HD release. Why? Because that's the way it's done in the eyes of the movie industry.

        You are exactly correct. Witness that we still have to choose between buying the widescreen and 'adjusted for your screen' version, whereas when I first started buying DVDs, they were frequently flipper disks with both screen formats.

        Witness that DTS and Dolby Digital used to be two separate disks (and still are in some cases).

        I seem to remember the absurdity of Jurassic park broke down to the following modifiers:

        • Widescreen or Pan-and-scan
        • DTS or Dolby Digital
        • Special edition or Joe Schmoe edition


        In all, I believe the origianl release of Jurassic park was available in six different combinations.

        Hollywood would rather sell them to you over and over.

        • Re:HD DVD sounds better to me (Score:5, Interesting)

          by default luser ( 529332 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:44AM (#13685308) Journal
          You are exactly correct. Witness that we still have to choose between buying the widescreen and 'adjusted for your screen' version, whereas when I first started buying DVDs, they were frequently flipper disks with both screen formats.

          Yes, there were a couple reasons early DVDs were mostly flipper discs, and most of them came with both versions.

          Early on the industry had not perfected the dual-layer concept, so the dual-sided, single-layer disc was common. But the industry was smart - they knew that discs that required flipping in the middle of the movie would not only piss people off, but would remind people of Laserdisc.

          So, with the exception of longer movies like Goodfellas, most double-sided, single-layer early discs cut the video bitrate a little and packed a whole movie onto each side. This also gave the industry the perfect "extra" feature to sell the new DVD format: widescreen and standard on the same disc.

          Witness that DTS and Dolby Digital used to be two separate disks (and still are in some cases).

          I didn't like those early dual-sided discs. Some movies that hit the 2-hour mark look like shit because the video bitrate is down in the 4Mbit range. It was a compromise.

          Nowadays, the number of different versions available reflect the truth about DVD:

          DVD was sold to the public on the concept that it could hold EVERYTHING, including multiple 9Mbit versions of the movie, Dolby Digital, DTS, extras, you name it. But the capacity to do this was truely only available in DVD18, which was expensive to make, and still required that annoying flipping by the user.

          The fact is, DVD is most consumer-friendly in the single-sided, dual-layer package (and it's also convenient that single-sided, dual-layer discs are cheaper to make these days). Thus, you have 9GB to work with, which means ONE high-bitrate version of the movie with Dolby Digital in english and spanish, and maybe DTS or a few behind the scenes extras.

          I mean, SURE studios invent reasons for re-releases, but the compartmentalization of features is mostly due to the limitations of DVD. Most people don't realize this, but if you crank up the DVD bitrate to maximum, you'll eat up almost an entire layer in an hour. We need more space...and hence, the new format.

          This time around, the hybrid disc looks like a winner, because you don't have to cut any corners: dual layer DVD on one side, dual-layer HD-DVD on the other. Unfortunately, the movie industry will capitalize on this killer combination, and will probably charge 20-50% more for these new features (much like a special-edition DVD today).

          My hope is that BD-ROM will be out around the same time period. It may cause confusion, but the format war has to be fought sooner-or-later. With two formats on the field, artificial upcharges will disappear.
    • If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition

      But that's just as possible to do with BD. So as a deciding factor its a moot point IMO. Also, IIRC there are some limitations in doing the hybrid. Its been mentioned that the hybrid HD DVD may only allow a single layer (4.3 GB) for the "normal" DVD side. That may or may not be true, and it may be just as much of a problem for BD.

      Another factor to consider is that the BD group is closer to impleme
    • Blu-ray supports hybrid discs, and in fact allows both versions on one side of the disc, which is certainly easier for labeling purposes.

  • EeziPost (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Slashdot EeziPost (TM) MK I

    #NB: For obvious reasons, the first option is ENABLED by default - remember to turn off if you are NOT responding to a dupe

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    [X] I Haven't RTFA, but... $random_opinionated_comment

    [ ] Slashdotted already!. I bet their server runs on $topic_item too

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    [X] Fsck: [ ] SCO [X] Micro$oft

  • Let's just ask Hugh Hefner (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LexNaturalis ( 895838 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:10AM (#13683656)
    It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...

    Sorry, but I just wanted to pre-empt those that are inevitably going to claim that. At any rate, if the article (re: Microsoft) is true, then Blu-Ray probably won't succeed because HD-DVD is already here. I'm still pulling for Blu-Ray, for a variety of reasons, but realistically I realize that most consumers are going to see "HD-DVD" and think "Ooooh... a DVD that will play HD" (fallacy notwithstanding) whereas people will see Blu-Ray and think "What the... what's this crap?"

    Alas, at this point it's still all speculation. Perfect for /. so I thought I'd share my own.

    • not likely (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...

      The ability to view porn in more private circumstances was hugely transformative for the average joe. So the availability of porn made a major difference for videotape buying decisions.

      The internet was another dramatic transformation. Not only was human contact at point-of-purchase no longer necessary, but also tiny slices of the market (some rather bizarre) could be specifically targeted and exploited by p

    • HD-DVD is now delayed to near blu-ray launch (Score:4, Interesting)

      by elwinc ( 663074 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:36AM (#13683810)
      Parent says "HD-DVD is already here."

      Unfortunately, according to this article , [theregister.co.uk]

      Toshiba yesterday confirmed its next-generation optical disc format, HD DVD, will not launch in the US until "February or March". The technology had previously been expected to hit the market before the end of this year.
      According to this [msn.com] the delay is not for technical reasons: "The consortium behind the disc wants to avoid repeating 1997's slow launch of the DVD, for which only a few titles were initially available."

      On the other hand, in 1997 there wasn't a competing DVD format breathing down anyone's neck.

    • Re:Let's just ask Hugh Hefner (Score:4, Funny)

      by GigG ( 887839 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:43AM (#13683859)
      I never, ever want to see a porn movie in Hi-Def.
    • Blu-Ray probably won't succeed because HD-DVD is already here.

      Err, Blu-Ray is not only already here, but in Japan you could have bought a blu-ray set-top burner (for a few thousand dollars, of course) years ago. Of course, it used its own proprietary format and not the standardized HD format that was recently created, but the technology for creating discs and the drives that read them is very old news, far from "unproven".

      In this case, it's just Microsoft exploiting the fact that America is a technological
    • The only use that the vast majority of people would use these for is movies in high definition. I for one am not going to buy a high definition TV until they are only about twice what I pay for a television today. I can buy a 27 inch for around $200 so they have a lot to go before the masses will buy a high definition television set. By that time I see broadband being 100mbits a second or more so most people will have high definition video on demand and will let the isp figure out which brand of DVD to b

  • It's painfully obvious... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by advocate_one ( 662832 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:10AM (#13683658)
    that a bird in the hand (ie. the standard that's available right now) is worth far more than two in the bush (ie the one that's only promised and is at least two years off)... I mean, which manufacturer is going to hold off on the promise of 50GB, when he can have 30GB right now??? only an idiot who's going to miss the boat and look very, very stupid.
    • Personally, i dont think 30 or 50gb is acceptable. thats only a 3-5x increase over what we have now... I can't get excited over anything less than an order of magnitude

    • Playstation 3... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MosesJones ( 55544 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:38AM (#13683823) Homepage

      So 50GB is miles off, of course it is because we all know that HD-DVD is so real and there are so many devices whereas Blu-ray will only be shipping in potentially the biggest selling console of 2006.

      Microsoft do XBox 360, Sony do PS3, XBox 360 hasn't gone for either HD-DVD or Blu-ray. If HD-DVD was so real why didn't they pick it for XBox 360?

      Its amazing how this talk of reality of Blu-ray (which I've actually seen demo'ed) over HD-DVD tends to ignore the fact that only one company (Sony) is producing a mass market player in 2006.

      If PS3 wins, then Blu-ray will have significant volume in 2006 which will drive down costs and mean larger capacity disks arrive much earlier.

      "Grand Theft Auto - Whole of the damned Continenal United States" anyone?

    • So what's wrong with 25GB BDROM right now and 50GB tomorrow? Is that extra 5GB SO important RIGHT NOW? Seems to me we'll see a drive and discs at 25GB BDROM before we'll se 30GB HD-DVDs.
      • I agree. Blu-ray is the way to go. HD-DVD just won't be big enough. I loved the reasons MS gave for why they supprted HD-DVD. One said that it was slightly bigger. Then another reason is that with HD-DVD you could put the old DVD format [tomshardware.com] on another layer so that someone without a new player could still buy the same disk and not come home and find that they can't play it. But that just seriously takes away a lot of the capacity of the HD-DVD...as in a whole layer. So the HD-DVD is down to 15 GB. Wow.

        • Re:It's painfully obvious... (Score:5, Informative)

          by WARM3CH ( 662028 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:31AM (#13685121)
          with HD-DVD you could put the old DVD format on another layer... So the HD-DVD is down to 15 GB
          Wrong. The idea is to put old DVD format on another side of the disk not another layer.
          I read, HD-DVD doesn't have anything even in the lab that is bigger than 30 GB
          Wrong. They have the triple-layer, 45GB disks in the lab
          One is the whole console war, and the second is HD-DVD will use Micorsofts own codec whereas Blu-ray will not.
          Wrong again. Both camps support 3 codecs: MPEG2, MPEG4/H.264 and VC1 which is based on MS's WM9.
      • The problem is all the 25 GB players you seel that won't play the newest releases in two years. Remember its going to take a few years for the prices of these players (wether HD DVD or BD) to get down to the $50 you can get a DVD player for. So how many people are going to spend several hundred dollars to buy a player that may not be useful in a couple years? I think I'd stick with my DVD player and get a 50 GB player when they're ready -which could seriously hurt the nascent market if a lot of people thoug

    • I have to question the whole push to next generation dvd. I don't really see that it buys us anything we don't already have and it costs a small fortune with upgrades. If you look at what these companies are intending to ship on HD/BR-DVD it is pretty obvious that, for now at least, they would be better off just sticking with regular DVD. I can only think of a hand full of games that have a DVD version and, lets face it, there is no advantage to the DVD version other than it has fewer disks (eg the graphics

      • every man and his dog's got a dvd player now... they're so cheap now, you chuck them away when they start to skip... The market's saturated... so the hardware guys are clamouring for a new format to get us all off buying again... not to mention the content guys want us to go out and buy our content all over again in this nice fancy new high def format. Mind you, I've just counted up my DVD collection, some 350 plus titles... and there is NO WAY I'm going to just up and get them all over again... I've only j
      • Films might benifit from a switch to HD/BR-DVD but I am very skeptical.

        Actually, I think films will benefit dramatically from this, and this is the real market. All those people who are shelling out thousands of dollars for HDTV sets are starved for HD content to put on them. Sure DVD's look pretty good on a good HDTV set, but HD DVD's (either format) will look much better.

        With better compression technologies available now than which DVD first came out I am sure that it would be possible to put a much bet

    • Re:It's painfully obvious... (Score:5, Informative)

      by hattig ( 47930 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:12AM (#13684165) Journal
      Microsoft went with HD-DVD because Bluray uses BD-J (i.e., Java) for interactive, programmable, etc, content.

      BluRay drives have been around for a long time. They exist now.

      What isn't finalised is the DRM and various things relating to that. It won't take too long to get these things finalised.

      The 2 years to 50GB stuff is pure FUD as far as we, the consumers, are concerned. Have either of us held a HD-DVD or a BD-ROM in out hands? No. They're both up in the air. We should just sit back and wait for one or the other to release something. It isn't as if BluRay single-layer (23, 25 or 27GB) is that much lower than HD-DVD dual layer (30GB) anyway.

      I know one BluRay manufacturer said they'd be making 50GB stuff this December.

      Let's just wait and see what happens!

  • Seems pretty reasonable (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SysKoll ( 48967 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:10AM (#13683659)
    Looks like a set of very down-to-Earth, well argumented reasons. Maybe, for once, this will be a decision that is not grounded in anti-competitive behavior?
    • Oh really?

      What do you think the chance is Microsoft will make an authorized port of BD-DVD reading software to linux? Will we have a De-CSS scenario all over again, only this time with something more secure than 40 bits of encryption protecting the content?
      • You are missing my point. I have no doubt that MS will attempt to reinforce its monopoly by any means, including in this technical arena. But the arguments presented against Blu-Ray are grounded in reasonable, cross-industry facts instead of the FUD we all came to expect from MS. That's what makes this MS message remarkable. I'd have expected MS to focus on the "Blu-Ray don't allow us to screw, er, protect consumers" aspects.

        As for the copy protection aspect, rest assured that no next-generation DVD will

        • Microsoft is pro-Consumer, just more pro-Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)

          by alexhmit01 ( 104757 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:39AM (#13684451)
          Historically, Microsoft has been extremely pro-Consumer... they just sometimes put themselves first.

          I mean, Microsoft created the hardware commoditization... had they not licensed a compatible MS-DOS to Compaq (and instead went back to IBM to re-negotiate), the commoditization of PCs wouldn't have happened. They historically were willing to support any hardware platform, not support the monopolization... they haven't tried to lock in a single video card.

          Even where they attempted to monopolize markets (DirectX 3D vs. OpenGL), it was arguably pro-consumer... while OpenGL was the better API, MS's API was able to be supported by more hardware manufacturers, while OpenGL was more complicated and required more power...

          Microsoft has recently moved in an anti-consumer direction, but ONLY for their own stuff.

          Look, I love iTunes and iTMS, but that said, the Microsoft WMA "standard" does support competition in both the player (hardware) market and competition in the music "retailer" market...

          While they aren't generally friendly to standards, and compete like dogs against any perceived threat, their default is generally to bring prices down for customers... just not THEIR prices.

          Their aggressive tactics DEFINITELY involved non-innovating and swooping in when the leader falters, bundling with their OS monopoly, and generally engaging in tactics that would be cutthroat for a small company, and at times criminal for a monopolist.

          That said, they aren't an anti-consumer company, beyond the fact that their actions destroy the competition.

          In fact, they have generally been the MOST resistant to limiting user actions, contrasted on the OS side with IBM's OS/2 and Apple's Mac OS (Classic OR X)... you could replace the default shell, and until Win95, some companies did, and other easy to tweak aspects of the OS.

          I think that the MS bashing needs to focus on where they are abusive... They also piss off enthusiasts for the same reason Wal-Mart pisses off upper-middle class consumers... If you appreciate quality things, then you HATE the low priced player that puts the company that makes higher quality stuff out of business.

          As a enthusiast, I hate that MS's push to lower prices for computers (without lowering their prices) has pushed out good technology and replaced it with crap... however, as a purchaser of computer hardware, I do appreciate how much prices have dropped, and I realize that it was a combination of Microsoft and Intel pushing EVERY OTHER component to commodity status... just like I appreciate the myriad of Linux players doing the same thing to the OS component, and OpenOffice/StarOffice pushing productivity software to commodity status.

          Alex
          • Thanks for the comment. I think you're right about the part MS historically played in commoditizing computers and software.

            History shows a pattern, over and over, that seems dictated by human nature. A new organization comes up, shakes up the establishment, wins converts, storms the old older, and becomes the new dominant force. Then, this new organization becomes complacent, sclerosed, self-centered and parasitic. It behaves increasingly like the old establishment it replaced. This is especially true in

    • "Maybe, for once, this will be a decision that is not grounded in anti-competitive behavior?"

      In reality its both. HD-DVD may very well be the sane choice, but that doesn't change the fact that time after time MS has proven that it only makes moves that are anti-competitive. This time both logic and their anti-competitive ideals just happen to be in alignment.

    • Re:Seems pretty reasonable (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DarkEdgeX ( 212110 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:14AM (#13684184) Journal
      Unless Microsoft is just making this shit up, which I think they are. It's really weird that HD-DVD, when originally announced, only ever supported 15 GB discs. BluRay was announced from the get-go to handle 25 GB single layer discs and 50 GB dual layer discs. Within a short span of time after that, the HD-DVD crowd came crowing about their dual layer 30 GB solution.

      See a pattern here? HD-DVD has been trying to one-up BluRay for quite a while. Now it seems that, instead of playing catch-up, they're just going to pretend BluRay doesn't exist.

      I mean, I guess that's one way to try and beat your competitor. But something tells me it'll fail once the market sees what's what (read: forget all this back and forth about Microsoft and Sony; when you (don't) see 50 GB dual layer discs sitting on the shelf at Wal*Mart you'll know who was telling the truth and who wasn't).

  • Typical /. stupidity (Score:5, Informative)

    by News for nerds ( 448130 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:11AM (#13683661) Homepage
    "or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?"

    Blu-ray is NOT Sony. Sony is just one of them [blu-raydisc.com].

  • Microsoft follows the money /PS3 problems as well? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:13AM (#13683675)
    I'm not one to believe Microsoft too readily, but let's face it: MS follows the cash, and if MS thinks that there's more money to be made with HD DVD, maybe they are on to something? It's not like VC-1 isn't in both formats, so what is to gain by not backing Blu-ray?

    And, has anyone noticed all of this talk about the PS3 slipping to late fall 2006 for a launch?
    • t's not like VC-1 isn't in both formats, so what is to gain by not backing Blu-ray?

      Well, for one thing, I suspect MS would prefer to not pay Sony royalties on every Xbox 360 sold. I have no doubt that that fits into the decision to (eventually) put HD DVD on Xbox360s.

    • Microsoft does not always do things for money (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:27AM (#13685059)
      If Microsoft "followed the money" they would have just joined the java consortium and standards body instead of creating .Net.

      If Microsoft "followed the money" they would just support the OpenDocument format instead of waging war on office suites.

      If Microsoft did anything for reasons other than emotion, they would be a very different company. Very little of what Microsfot does makes sense outside of the context of a strong agressor aiming to kill competition at all costs - not all gains.
    • Correct: MS follows the money
      HD-DVD spec has Microsoft IPR in it, Blu-Ray does not. Hence if HD-DVD wins, MS gets more cash than if Blu-Ray does, its as simple as that.
    • The main sticking point for Microsoft is the ability to copy a movie from the new format to hard disk. Microsoft has a lot of money invested in their Media Center software, and even more money in licensing their DRM to to makers of PMPs, media players, etc.

      HD-DVD will allow this. People can rip the HD-DVD to hard drive, but the rip will still be DRM encoded. So to stream it to another device for playback, the playback device mfg will have to license the DRM technology from Microsoft.

      The problem with Blu-

  • Reminds me of something .... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ravee ( 201020 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:14AM (#13683686) Homepage Journal
    It is like old times. The technology with the best marketing team gets accepted as a standard. To heck with technological superiority and other crap. This is how windows became the defacto in the operating system arena. Even though there were better alternatives like OS/2 and MAC.

  • Given the history of Sony's formats (Score:5, Insightful)

    by johansalk ( 818687 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:19AM (#13683709)
    I have to say, however much I may not like Microsoft's shenanigans, that given the history of Sony's formats, I would, without even needing to know the details, choose whatever solution other than theirs.
    • What history of Sony formats? Do you mean Betamax, Minidisc, MultiMedia Compact Disc, Sony Dynamic Digital Sound, Memory Stick, HiFD, ATRAC3, XM, SACD, and UMD?

      The most successful thing Sony ever did was XM, and now with ads it totally sucks balls. Just a matter of time until Sirius destroys it.

      • The most successful thing Sony ever did was XM

        I believe Sony helped to establish [wikipedia.org] the 3.5" floppy disk standard. That sounds like the most successful standard they brought about. They convinced Apple to use it for the Macintosh in 1984, which made it the successor [wikipedia.org] to the 5.25" floppy.

      • Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't XM do away with commercials on the music channels about a year ago? I don't have commercials on any of the music channels I listen to. I think Sirius does the same thing.

      • Re:Given the history of Sony's formats (Score:4, Insightful)

        by doctor_no ( 214917 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:52AM (#13685404)
        Other than the 3.5" floppy disk, that other people mention, they are the pioneers of optical storage, with the collaboration of Phillips they introduced the CD-ROM. The popularity of the Audio cassette tape was also partly Sony's doing, while Phillips invented it, Sony convinced phillips to license it for free due to the popularity of the Walkman.

        So in reality they are responsible for two of the most ubiquitous formats around, and they did have a hand in the DVD as well (DVD was a compromise between the MMCD & Superdensity disk). In reality, Sony(along with Phillips), have produced the most prevalent formats around.

  • VHS vs Beta revisited? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tsu-na-mi ( 88576 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:21AM (#13683722) Homepage
    VHS came out after Beta, BUT, VHS had a larger capacity than Beta. I think we all know how THAT turned out.

    What will push Blu-ray? Playstation 3. Microsoft's support of the other team should come as no surprise, but in the end I expect they will support it.

    • OMFG, I'm so bloody sick of the comparison to BETA/VHS whenever there's a battle for two competetive standards. Holy f**king crap, stop with the BETA/VHS comparisons.

      You *can't* predict the future by looking at the past. Whatever happened in the BETA/VHS debacle is of no consequence to what happens with Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. You can look back and see the reasons for this and that, but that doesn't mean the reasoning will apply today.

      Ok, so VHS had larger capacity than Beta and came along a bit later. Evident

  • The only criteria.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:24AM (#13683738)
    is how much DRM each technology uses.

    Blu-ray lost my vote when they decided to build in functionality to allow the movie industry to actually disable your player if they chose. To restore your disabled player you would have to send it in for 'repair'.

  • One format, please (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rbf2000 ( 862211 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:27AM (#13683752) Homepage
    To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter which format wins. I was personally leaning towards blu-ray, but the formats are similar enough that one can replace the other. Many people compare this to VHS and Betamax. I think it's different. I think it will be more like the current recordable DVD fiasco that's going on now. Consumers don't know what the difference between DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RAM, etc. This confusion hurts the entire industry because consumers don't know what is going on.

    I wish the talks between the two had not broken down because I don't see this ending easily. Sony will put it in their PS3 which will tremondously help out the format, just like the PS2 did for DVDs. But of course the "official" format will not die easily, and now that they have the support of microsoft and intel, it will make it even more difficult for one format to just quietly leave the game.

  • Only reason MS is backing HD DVD (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ValuJet ( 587148 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:30AM (#13683778)
    The only reason MS will back the HD DVD is because sony is using blu-ray in the PS3. They want that machine to become as obsolete as soon as possible. It scares MS to death that people will want a blu-ray DVD player because that is a HUGE valueadd to the PS3.

    It becomes a lot easier to stomach a 500+ dollar game purchase when it will also play blu-ray dvds aswell, because people will want to watch the better quaility pictures.

    It isn't that difficult to figure out why MS hates blu-ray and that is because their XBOX360 (which is really unimpressive) is still stuck on regular DVDs. If you have to buy an XBOX360 (400) + nextgen dvd player (200-300, maybe more) vs buying a ps3 (500, price is a guess, but I can't see it costing more than that. If it does its dead before it ships) people are SAVING money by buying the ps3.

    well, not really but you can spin it that way.

    • Yes, because the reasons MS cited (cost and expectations) are completely laughable and bogus.

    • Fanboy alert!

      Ok, let's look at this objectively (that might be hard for you). TFA says they're backing HD-DVD because it's producable NOW. Blu-Ray is really expensive and they haven't hit the expected storage. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will play HD content fine. Difference is in DRM and backwards compatiblity. Considering the bitrate at 1080 is 25 Mbs, it allows for 20 HOURS of content on a 30GB HD-DVD producable TODAY. Even with special features/audio/whatever, there's more than enough space there. I

  • Oh, the irony (Score:5, Funny)

    by mvdwege ( 243851 ) <mvdwege@mail.com> on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:43AM (#13683863) Homepage Journal

    In effect, Microsoft is accusing the BDA of promoting vapourware.

    The irony is delicious.

    Mart

  • How can you trust the competence... (Score:3, Funny)

    by clickety6 ( 141178 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:43AM (#13683865)
    ... of people who can't even spell the word BLUE !!!

  • Know one of the real reasons? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DdJ ( 10790 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @09:51AM (#13683923) Homepage Journal
    The Blu-Ray spec requires a fully functional Java interpreter to be embedded in every media player. You know the scripting language that DVDs use to control menus and stuff like that? On a Blu-Ray system, this is a full Java implementation with access to a TCP stack and everything.

    (I saw some sessions about this at JavaOne this year.)

    How could Microsoft get behind something like that?
    • Yeah, really, it's not .NOT ... er, .NET compliant. Plus it's common knowledge that XBox 360 has been scheduled to ship with a DVD drive (with, supposedly, an HD-DVD upgrade) for some time now. I think it was a foregone conclusion that Microsoft was going to be in the HD-DVD camp.

      But really.. what difference does it make? Microsoft supporting it won't do jack to change the adoption of the format vs. BluRay. It's not like they're going to be putting software on HD-DVD anytime soon (they're only just now mov

  • Blu-ray: 2005 Japan, 2006 North America (Score:3, Informative)

    by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:01AM (#13684035) Homepage Journal
    From reading the FAQ [blu-ray.com] on the Blu-ray.com [blu-ray.com] web site (not same as Blue-ray association [bluraydisc.com]) there are already players supporting Blu-ray in Japan, but we are unlikely to see them in North America until 2006.
     

  • I'm surprised about something (Score:5, Insightful)

    by powerline22 ( 515356 ) <`thecapitalizt' `at' `gmail.com'> on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:11AM (#13684157) Homepage
    The thing that has a lot of the anti-DRM people up in arms about Blu-Ray is how it will enable content companies to change the software on their player, and other evil things about that. However..

    HD-DVD MUST allow you to make AT LEAST ONE COPY. This is something that current DVD's don't even let you do (legally.) For this reason alone, i am switching my support from Blu-Ray to HD-DVD (and I suggest that the consortium advertise this. say "blu-ray wont even let you do what you want with the content you own!"). Besides, if it can be shared at least once, theres nothing that says we can't create some software to let us copy it more than once...
    • Yes it must let you make one copy. However it also provides the option to have a studio make you pay for that copy (see article).

      Now what does that imply? The need for network connectivity to make a copy. Are you really so happy with being able to make a copy when your copy of that disc is logged somewhere?

  • PR FUD (Score:5, Informative)

    by doctor_no ( 214917 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @10:24AM (#13684285)
    "Proven capacity" is somewhat of a vague term being that HD-DVD hasn't shipped yet, and Blu-ray has only shipped in Japan. Being that now the HD-DVD is delayed till 2006, from the consumers standpoint, nothing has really been proven yet, and for either format it's too early to tell.

    As far as costs are concerned, they only talk of manufactering costs which tend to stabilize over time. Certainly, initially, Blu-ray should cost a lot more than HD-DVD if it needs retooling, however once econmies of scale are established manufactering cost tend to plateau, hence while this is short term concern, but perhaps not a long-term one. What isn't talked about however is liceencing cost, the main issue in contention that caused the split was that currently you have to pay the 6C ~4%-10% of the sale price of DVD hardware(depending on the cost of the machine), something that HD-DVD retains, I'm not sure how either format fares but ultimely this will be a massive cost when initial players are expected to cost $500-$1,000(maybe much more than manufactering differences).

    Engadget has a great article on this:
    http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/ [engadget.com]

    Also, the argument "Support for hybrid discs" is ridiculous. HD-DVD use "flippers" as hybrid disks. i.e. DVD on one-side and HD-DVD on the other (kinda like the old DVDs that had "widescreen" & "fullscreen"). JVC, has developed a Blu-ray disk that is a true hybrid, having a DL-DVD9 and a Blu-ray on one side.

    http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4 [cdfreaks.com]

    However, while MS/Intel are big names it seems irrelevant being that they don't actually have any products to market (and XB360 won't have HD-DVD standard; not even an option at this point, maybe a $500 system to fit above their "core" and "Premium" bundles). Only other impact that the deal seems to have is Media Center PCs, but 71% of MediaCenter PCs don't even come with a TV-tuners (which kinda makes the most important feature useless). Windows support can easily be cured w/drivers, and Dell and HP are Blu-ray supporters hence windows PCs from them will likely come with Blu-Ray. Seems to be more a PR-deal. Ultimetely it will be the Studios that decide the winner, and they will at the end choose the format that the consumers are buying.

    http://www.mediacenterpcworld.com/news/502 [mediacenterpcworld.com]
  • I think one thing people totally forget about the HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray competition is that TDK recently demonstrated a new optical disk material that is extremely scratch-proof, which makes it possible for Blu-Ray discs to no longer need the protective caddy now needed for Blu-Ray machines now sold in Japan.

    As such, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray can use improved versions of the same mechanism now used for DVD drives. This opens the door for a company like Plextor to produce a computer optical disk drive that can

  • They will both fail. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by JayBlalock ( 635935 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:14AM (#13684846)
    Sorry to rain on the collective parade, but I seem to be the only one saying this:

    What reason does the average consumer have to upgrade?

    Just ponder that one for a minute. What do EITHER of the formats actually offer?

    1 - increased storage space. OK, we'll now have the ability to watch the expanded Return of the King, all 4 1/2 hours of it, without once getting up out of our seat to change discs. Since standing up every 3 hours is such an inconvenience. (not to mention the tiny number of movies which can't fit onto a current DVD)

    And 2 - Full support for high-def televisions. Except that despite years on the market, penetration is TINY and still only the top couple percent of people own them.

    And that's pretty much IT. (We won't even discuss "draconian DRM" or such things) Now, look at all the advantages of DVD over VHS that convinced the public to convert.

    See my point? The *ONLY* way that the public will switch over to a new DVD format is if the studios force them to. (by dropping support for old DVD entirely) But since the studios won't agree on a format, even THAT won't work. Like hell the public will buy TWO new players just to be able to play all the new releases they want.

    These new technologies, BOTH of them, are set to fail spectacularly. They'll end up just being proprietary formats for the various video game consoles. But unless everyone starts cooperating in a BIG way there's no chance whatsoever of them supplanting DVD as the home movie format of choice.

    • Support for HD televisions is hugely important. You say HDTV penetration is tiny. . . One of the large problems holding back HDTV has been the lack of a videodisc format. This is a product HDTV owners are crying out for, and it will sell a ton of HD sets. In my opinion the HD transition has been handled badly and has been going far more slowly than it should -- but it's still going. HD videodiscs are needed, they are badly overdue.

      What about DVD? You wrote, "Now, look at all the advantages of DVD over

  • Dell and HP answer back (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Tibor the Hun ( 143056 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @11:47AM (#13685342)
    From the Register:
    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/dell_h p_vs_ms_intel/ [channelregister.co.uk]

    By Tony Smith 30 Sep 2005 14:04
    Dell, HP slam Intel, MS' 'erroneous' HD DVD claims
    Our format's better. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is...

    Backers of the Blu-ray Disc (BD) have hit back against "erroneous" claims from Intel and Microsoft that HD DVD is the superior next-generation optical disc format for PCs.

    The joint Intel/Microsoft statement was said to be "not aligned" with the "vast majority" of computer industry participants, Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) members Dell and HP said.

    "Microsoft and Intel's announcement erroneously indicates that HD-DVD has an advantage in a number of areas," they claimed, pointing to the chip and software giants' statement that HD DVD offers a greater storage capacity than BD.

    As The Register noted at the time, Intel and MS' claim that HD DVD's 30GB capacity is better than BD's 25GB is nonsense: the two companies conveniently ignored the fact they were talking about dual-layer HD DVD discs and single-layer BDs.

    Dell and HP also challenged MS and Intel on their claim that HD DVD is the only format to allow users to make controlled copies of the content stored on the disc: that's part of the AACS copy-protection system, the BDA said, and AACS is also part of the BD spec.

    BD also provides scope for hybrid discs, backward compatibility with DVD, the ability to operate in slimline drives for notebook PCs and a high degree of interactivity, all features MS and Intel claimed were only available with HD DVD, the PC vendors said.

    "Dell has no doubt that BD best meets the needs of computer users and provides the type of open industry standards needed to drive innovation and growth of the format across all platforms - consumer electronic, personal computers and gaming consoles," the company's CTO, Kevin Kettler said.

    "From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150 per cent more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slimline notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD-Java," added Maureen Weber, general manager of HP's Personal Storage Business. ®

  • Fuck the drives - I just want the little blue laser inside!

    Seriously, how are they going to sell these drives for a reasonable price when blue laser diodes are insanely expensive [google.com]?

  • "Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it's well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs."

    Wow Cool! Then the savings can be passed on to the consum... er.. ha.. HA... BWAHAHA!! BWAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

    I tried to say it! I really tried!

  • blu-ray attack! (Score:3, Funny)

    by chrish ( 4714 ) on Friday September 30, 2005 @03:43PM (#13687944) Homepage
    When I saw this headline, I had the most awesome mental image of blue lasers decimating the Redmond campus...

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