Dell Laptops Have Shocking New Problem 475
dapsychous writes "A friend of one of my coworkers has noticed a problem in Dell notebook computers (also covered in this engadget article about a problem that has been popping up lately in Dell 17" notebook computers). It seems that these computers are putting out between 19 and 139 (65 according to article, 139 according to him) volts of AC power as measured from any chassis screw vs. earth ground. This has led to several problems including fried ram, blown video circuits, and a stout zap on his left hand.
According to him, Dell has tried to keep him quiet about the problem and has even gone so far as to have him banned from a few websites, and threatened him with legal action if he tells people about the problem."
Non-repro? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the guy should be carefull so that he don't sleep with da fishes.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Realistically, I can't see why you'd ever have the voltages claimed by this article inside a laptop. Laptop supplies are usually 24-ish volts. Anybody reporting numbers higher than that probably has something else wrong, like an inverter power cable that is being pinched by a hinge or something. Either way, at the current levels we're talking about, it should be pretty harmless, if a little uncomfortable. However, Dell still should fix their supply design for other reasons.
I was helping someone on one
I had this problem too (Score:3, Interesting)
Normally I would have been happy, but the new system had inferior graphics and disk drive, and was incompatable with the upgraded RAM in the old system. Dell would not reconcile the issues, and just had their tech support deny my claims.
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Funny)
You insensitive clod! (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Non-repro? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Non-repro? (Score:4, Informative)
I recomment Vantec's LapCool series, and at about $25 they won't break your wallet.
Re:Non-repro? (Score:5, Funny)
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The quote from the article is:
Oh shit. (Score:2)
*sigh*, Is there not a company we can trust anymore?
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Re:Oh shit. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh shit. (Score:5, Insightful)
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That said though, Dell isn't in my white list, that's for sure. Michael Dell is in for the money, period...
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Re:Oh shit. (Score:5, Informative)
Called them up twice because one of their guaranteed for life tupperware container cracked in my dish washer on 2 separate occasions (similar size/type). They apologized, suggested putting them on the upper dishwasher rack to reduce the chance of this happening, and sent me a coupon good on anything rubbermaid up to the value of the thing that broke. I asked how I needed to send in the broken container (which their warranty terms say you have to do), and they said I didn't have to because they trusted that I was telling the truth.
Otherwise, never had a problem with any of their stuff and the only remotely bad thing that I know of that they did was try to get retirees of a company they bought to pay $40/mo for health insurance.
re: As long as we're naming "good" companies.... (Score:5, Informative)
I purchased one of their MX1000 laser mice when it was a brand new item, and while it was excellent - my 4 year old dropped it on the floor one too many times. The center rocker button surrounding the scroll wheel started sticking occasionally, causing things to scroll, out of control, in web browsers, MS Word, etc.
Seeing it was under Logitech's warranty, I figured it couldn't hurt to give them a call - to see if they might be able to sell me a used/refurbished replacement mouse inexpensively or something, given the circumstances.
Instead, the sales rep. looked up its serial number to confirm it was under warranty, and simply said "A brand new replacement is on its way." I asked if they needed the old mouse back, and I was told "No. You may as well keep it to have a spare charging base or something." Within a week, a new mouse was at my doorstep, in the retail packaging!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's one: Dillon Precision [dillonprecision.com], home of the "Blue Press" - a reloading catalog liberally sprinkled with beautiful women holding firearms. What makes them great is that they have a Lifetime "No-B.S." Warranty on their gear - a part breaks, you lose a spring, no problem, no charge!
Excellent customer service, IMHO, and pretty good reloading presses.
Re:Oh shit. (Score:5, Interesting)
If they are providing an un-grounded adapter then they should be sure that no external metal components can connect to the line neutral, because while that should ideally be at ground potential, the power spec provides for the possibility of it floating. I'd also like to see if he is shocked by the old setup if put on an isolation transformer.
-nB
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You trust them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, and why would you expect them to give you a straight answer? They'll probably just play dumb and say they've never heard of the problem. (Which will probably be true, at least for the drone you'll be talking to.)
Get out a voltmeter and test it; that would seem to be the easiest solution, and less likely to lie to your face than some Customer Service rep. Probably faster, too.
Until a problem like this becomes terribly public -- and by this I mean more public than just being covered on some technology websites -- I suspect Dell will deny it, except in cases where people absolutely insist that they have a problem, and demand a replacement. In those cases, they'll get a replacement machine just to shut them up.
So I'd just get out the old multimeter, measure the AC voltage from one of the chassis screws to the nearest good ground, and if it's more than a few millivolts, call Dell and tell (not ask) them that you need a replacement unit.
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You need to call Dell to check if that painful feeling in your fingers is for real?
Third-hand hearsay... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Third-hand hearsay... (Score:4, Funny)
just fix the laptop and stop screaming (Score:3, Interesting)
is Dell that bad at support nowadays? or is it just another "call me Bob" who has no clue who he's working for this month overseas and doesn't care?
new campaign (Score:5, Funny)
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Only in America! (Score:5, Informative)
"The latest word is that VG's own problems were solved by springing for a three-pronged grounded power adapter"
You can't get a non-earthed plug in the UK, the earth pin is physically required to open the plug socket. This can be a dummy pin, but you're only able to do that if the unit itself is double-insulated.
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Aren't there around 3 types of socket in common use? The tank-like giant socket with three rectangular pins. The socket with three round pins (possibly in two different sizes!). Also an "electric razor socket" putting out 115V in a bathroom. I know the first type is the official standard *now*, but I sa
Re:Only in America! (Score:4, Informative)
That's the BS 1363, which was standardised as an electrical appliance connector in 1962. It contains an integral fuse which can be replaced without opening the plug itself, is rated for 13 amps, and is considered by many engineers to be one of the best designed and safest domestic plugs in the world. Most appliances sold in the UK during the last couple of decades have one of these fitted (nowadays usually directly moulded to the cable).
"The socket with three round pins (possibly in two different sizes!)"
They're the older BS 546 type which was originally available in 2 amp (small) and 5 amp (bigger) variants. It's rare to see them as standard electrical appliance connectors in the UK nowadays even in old houses, because they've mostly been replaced by BS 1363 types, but they're sometimes used today for centrally switched domestic lighting circuits, where a fused plug can be inconvenient due to being hard to reach and therefore check / change.
"Also an "electric razor socket" putting out 115V in a bathroom"
You mostly only find these (BS 4573) in hotels and guest houses so that foreigners can plug stuff in without it blowing up. British consumer and safety laws don't allow 115v items to be sold in general retail (although some specialist devices are available for particular applications), so it's very unusual indeed to find one of these in a domestic setting, especially as they're commonly in bathrooms where UK law requires that sockets of this type be connected to an isolation transformer, thus making them rather expensive. A lot of domestic bathrooms do have two pin shaver connectors, but they're usually C17/E "Europlugs" that only output a standard British 240V/50Hz rather than the BS 4573 type.
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Several times between 1986 and 2002. Maybe central London is also different from the rest of the country since you have more unrenovated old buildings. I know my friend's apartment still had quite a few of the round-pin sockets, among other places that I saw them.
Round-pin plugs and sockets came in 3 sizes (rated 15A, 5A and 2A) and disappeared from general use in the early 1960s. They are retained for a few specialist purposes.
1) Theatre lights use them for the simple reason that they don't have a fuse in each plug. Every time a bulb blows it takes the fuse out with it and the last thing you want to do is crawl around the lighting bars looking for a blown fuse. Instead each circuit has a fuse (or nowadays a circuit breaker) back at the dimmer rack. These are t
This shouldn't be hapening in America either (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Only in America! (Score:5, Funny)
people usually freak out a bit a first but just ignore them
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It is quite common, also in the western world, and there is a perfectly good explanation:
Many countries require by law that an ungrounded metal chassis has a "fake ground" which is made by connecting the chassis to both phase and null throug
Why would there be high voltage in a notebook? (Score:2)
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It's needed to run the electroluminescent panel which lights the screen. ALSO, there can be 19VDC or whatever *between* the adapter + and - VDC pins. But, the whole system could be floating at some high AC voltage in relation to earth ground (as opposed to in relation to one another) if the AC adapter doesn't do a good job at isolation.
-b.
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-Em
Re:Why would there be high voltage in a notebook? (Score:5, Informative)
65 RMS is what, 91 P2P? (Score:2)
My EE is very fuzzy nowadays, but 65 volts AC root-mean-squared would indicate a higher voltage peak-to-peak. But not as high as 139 volts peak-to-peak. I get 65*2*sqrt(2)=91, but forget if that's even the right way to calculate it. Maybe the 139 volts is a high-water-mark sort of non-repeatable measurement?
Right. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sample size of one... (Score:5, Insightful)
A single manufacuring defect (if that is the problem) isn't worthy of
Also, did the "friend" modify the laptop at all? Perhaps disassemble it or otherwise "improve" it?
We've all gotten a lemon at one time or the other.
Stop griping... get a life.
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3rd-hand rumor, preferably from a newsgroup post or blog (check!)
Personal gripe (check!)
Conspiracy against the accuser (check!)
Some sort of advocacy for or against a vendor or company (check!)
It's the four-point-proof of adolescence!
And it's coming to Slashdot.
Or maybe I'm just now noticing.
On a couch perchance? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that he's measuring AC (which is very surprising since the laptops don't have any ready access to AC outside of the power brick AFAIK) make it less likely though.
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Screen backlights run on 400Hz AC somewhere between 100 and 200V. Also, if the adapter isn't isolating the laptop from the mains power well, you can get the correct voltage between + and -, but the whole system can be at some AC voltage in relation to earth ground (as opposed to laptop - input).
-b.
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You are forgetting about the LCD screen backlight, which is powered from a stepped-up AC supply in the notebook. My guess is that this supply is shorting out to the notebook chasis, perhaps in the screen hinge, causing this problem.
No need for a lawsuit (Score:2)
Why bother? they just have to tell him that, to fix the problem, he just has to touch these two tiny screws there with both hands and power on the machine. Problem solved!
Seriously though: where is 130V coming from (or is even used) in a laptop? I was under the impression that there's nothing high voltage in there, save for the LCD backlight perhaps?. So perhaps there's a chance that this is all a bunch of crap from some dude who's pissed
Macbook has same problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Mine does this! (Score:2)
I've been shocked a few times and have gotten memory parity bluescreens at least twice.
HD has bad sectors too.
Was already going to call in a support request this weekend when I have time to have the damn thing replaced.
Hooray! (Score:2, Funny)
Thank goodness I resisted buying a Dell!
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Definitely check your ground... (Score:2)
Tested with a volt meter, got anywhere between 60-130v rail-to-ground. And it was intermittent.
Upon unplugging the garage door opener, the voltage went to nothing. So, I asked him "Who wired that outlet?" He responded that he had wired the outlet, and was sure
Re:Definitely check your ground... (Score:5, Informative)
I know my house was built a long long time ago (1951) and the upstairs, while someone put in grounded outlets, it doesn't physically have the ground hooked up - due to the wiring used at the time of it being built.
That's an electrical code violation. If you have to have a 3-prong outlet on a 2-wire circuit, you must use a GFCI outlet, which gives you electric shock protection. That's allowed by the US National Electrical Code. The outlet plate should then be marked "Isolated Ground". This warns people that plugging in a computer there may have problems, because it can't dump static and noise into protective ground as usual.
If you're going to wire up power, read a manual on how to do it. It's not rocket science, but there are very specific rules and screwing up is dangerous.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You're right; NEC article 406 says that the correct marking is "No Equipment Ground" in that situation.
Watch the ESD (Score:5, Informative)
I worked it out recently when cold winter temperatures drove the humidity way down. Whenever I got up from the couch I would feel the charge build up, then I would inadvertently discharge myself of a light switch, a metal corner post in the drywall, or worse, on some home electronics. After I accidentally blew out the panel of buttons on a DVD player, I did some experiments. By rubbing my hand on the couch cushions for a few seconds, then using a piece of metal held in my hand (less painful that way) to discharge myself to ground, I found I could jump a spark 2 cm or more. Sometimes, I can get multiple sparks on one charge.
It's kind of cool, if you know to expect it. And, the remote still works for the DVD player...
So what your saying is... (Score:2)
I'll stick with my old Compaq...
I had this problem years ago with a Dell Laptop (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, the user was complaining about power issues with the laptop - things like it sudenly shutting down, starting up by itself and running the battery down, etc. Then out of the blue, she said, "and it's shocked me a couple of times." Like that's expected behavior.
I was somewhat skeptical about this, and figured it was a static problem or something unrelated but found out the harsh truth while I was on the support call with Dell. They had me do the usual bonehead stuff like do a hard reset, update the BIOS, remove/replace the battery, etc. I was typing on it and got zapped on the thumb with a serious shock. That's when I noticed the little scorch mark next to the right trackpad button. Looking down through the gap between the button and the case, I could see a little bit of metal from whatever was underneath. Enough charge was building up in there to arc to my hand, which can't be good.
The Dell support guy heard me yelp when I got shocked and asked me if everything was OK. I told him I just got a nasty shock from the laptop and he said, "can you hold for a minute please?"
I waited for about 2 minutes, and then some other guy came on the phone and said that they were sending out a replacement overnight and that I should return the other one right away. The replacement was a top-of-the-line Inspiron for the time, quite a step up from the one that zapped me. I figured it was a pretty good response.
So I issued the user a new Thinkpad from our closet and kept the nice Dell for myself. It worked out for everybody.
Re:I had this problem years ago with a Dell Laptop (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, I was in charge of IT at this company. My job was to keep people running and give them the tools they needed to do their jobs. The user in question could not have cared less if I had given her a ThinkPad, an exact-same replacement Dell, or an OLPC. Really...it was used for email and looking at pr0n. At least that's what the majority of the people in her department did all day.
So she got a brand new laptop and I got to use one that was somewhat more powerful and useful than the ones most people there had at the time. So freakin' what? I didn't defraud anybody. I didn't put it on eBay. The only (admittedly misplaced) trust violated here was that I trusted the readers of this post to understand WTF I was talking about.
I know it must be hard to live in a world where everybody wants to give you a wedgie and makes fun of your lack of personal hygiene. But rather than just lash out randomly at people as a way to vent your frustration, maybe you need to look in a mirror and see if you can figure out what's wrong with you and try to do something about it.
See that? I just called you a goober and don't even know if you are. I just inferred it from your post. I expect I'm probably right, but it's still not an exact science.
So go back under your bridge or wherever trolls live these days and STFU until you have something constructive to say.
What? (Score:2)
Electric Slide? (Score:2)
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/04/2
Seems like a SLAPP suit to me (Score:5, Informative)
On what grounds would this be a valid case? Once you sell something to someone that they own (not license), you cannot tell them what they can and cannot do with it so long as you do not cross any other lines and violate someone's privacy (which is why I suppose selling stuff you bought at auction from a storage company is illegal -- although I think most of what those guys did was OK, and the judge overreached). So this guy has every right to say "My computer shocks me, here's what kind of machine it is" because it's not slander, it's the truth.
Seems to me like this guy can file under anti-SLAPP rules, can't he? This company is trying to shut up someone who is exposing their mistakes -- and yes, it is a valid complaint (why wasn't he given a grounded power supply when it is known that failing to ground electronic devices can shock users?) and yes he has the right to be publicly heard if he wishes to. No one has the right to not be offended by what he has to say.
Problem with his test method (Score:3, Insightful)
Article vague, but some hints (Score:5, Informative)
The article is vague. It's not even clear if the problem occurs when the laptop is not plugged into the charger. The power supply for some backlights can produce over 100v, so there is a potential shock source even on battery power.
If the problem is related to the charger power supply, that's a clear safety hazard. Check for a UL logo, and go to the UL web site [ul.org] to check on whether the power supply actually has approval. If the power supply is made in China, it must have a hologram UL sticker with the UL approval number. There are power supplies out there with forged UL approvals, and UL is trying to crack down. (Those are the power supplies that fail in power supply tests on PC websites. UL tests them loaded up to their rated value and runs them for hours at full load, so the UL logo means it really can deliver whatever power it's supposed to deliver.)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The typical modern CCFL backlight requires 1200V to start up and runs on 400V. The amperage is fairly low.
Dell have shut Microsoft up too! OMG!! (Score:4, Funny)
Michael Dell doesn't fuck around does he!!!!
Verified (Score:5, Informative)
I am currently in contact with Dell about this issue and I am being informed they are letting the engineers know of the issue and hope to have a resolution soon.
The funniest thing I have read regarding this was a post in notebookforums from aindfan:
"I took my E1705 up to the Senior Design EE lab here. The two seniors that were there glanced over at my oscilloscope and realized what was going on, most likely assuming that I did not ground properly. When we took it over to the new, more advanced scope, the measurements reported were of a 60Hz periodic function with a peak-to-peak voltage of ~150V.
Being curious EE's, the next natural step that the seniors suggested was to see if we could pull any current out of the screws. A few moments later, we had a circuit with a laptop screw connecting to an LED in series with a 1K Ohm resistor connected to the ground node of a power supply (connected directly to the ground of a wall socket). I am happy to report that the LED turned on and there was a measured current of about 1.4 (mille or micro, I forget which) Amps flowing from the screw to the resistor.
Remember, folks, there will never be current flowing out of the laptop without a load attached to the screws. So don't hook up any 1 Ohm resistors if this is happening to your laptop, you might fry a few things (due to the large current, remember V=IR).
I'm opening up a Dell chat now to see about getting this resolved.
Thanks for starting this thread ViriiGuy. It was quite interesting to play around with the testing for this.
EDIT: When I asked the dell chat support tech if she could send a 3 pronged power adapter (after I explained the issue), she replied "I cannot do that.""
Good stuff.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If I disconnect the AC adapter and test the screws again the voltage essentially disappears. From what I have read on other forums the issue seems to be that the AC adapters supplied by Dell are two pronged, no ground, and if you use a three pronged adapter the issue is nonexistent. From my test this seems to support this conclusion.
If you have a E1705 or E1505 I would suggest calling Dell and discussing this with them as I have
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Switching to a grounded adapter supply may have just fixed the problem by switching to an adapter that is properly constructed.
Nice Headline... (Score:4, Funny)
But I think that Slashdot editors should conduct themselves in a more professional manner. How else can we expect you to discharge your duties effectively, and eliminate the audience's natural resistance?
Now let's get back to the current topic.
Bogus: The real explanation (Score:5, Informative)
Now if you hook a typical $4.99 digital voltmeter from Harbor Freight, the input impedance of the voltmeter, combined with these capacitors, will indicate anything from zero to 377 volts.
And if you rub your cat, the voltage could go much higher!
As you bright folks out there may be guessing, it's not the voltage so much that is the problem, it's the current. And the current is miniscule, microamps.
So no conspiracy here, move along, etc....
Um, it is the voltage... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that even if the current is miniscule, humans can feel as little as 1 mA. The LED lighting incident commented on earlier shows that the current is at least 1 mA, if not more.
The issue is that a laptop shouldn't be leaking any current. None. A circuit designed as you suggested is a potential lawsuit - if a capacitor shorts, the user gets full line current - not a very good idea. A person can be electrocuted well before a circuit protection device trips.
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Almost all devices which utilize wall-operated power supplies can have leakage current associated with them.
A circuit designed as you suggested is a potential lawsuit - if a capacitor shorts, the user gets full line current
Dropping a laptop on your toe is a potential lawsuit. The capacitors mentioned by the other poster are called X and Y caps. Any transformer-coupled switching power supply will electrostatically couple energy from the
Ever? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
(Yes, IAAEE, and yes, one of my current [no pun intended] projects involves developing a device to zap humans -
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The comments to the article? (Score:3, Funny)
I have a dell 6400 with the better display and YES i do get little shocks every other time i touch it. I thought its ok, but i guess its not...should i call dell and address this problem?
I mean, holy f'ing 5h1t! How can anyone possible have to ask someone else that question.. Errr, Duhhh... My laptop is shocking me Bob... Should I call support?
I'm just astounded.
BBH
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I guess this means we shouldn't urinate on the third screw then, eh?
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If the adapter is double insulated and isolates the laptop from the mains via a transformer, a ground isn't legally necessary. And a lot of US outlets in homes (especially in the Northeast) still don't have ground pins. So people tend just to break the ground pins off of plugs rather than replacing the outlet and running a ground wire if necessary.
-b.
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I'm sorry to contradict you but most laptop power supplies are not doubly insulated because the laptop itself is not doubly insulated and you really need to have it grounded in case a fault in the power supply transformer leads mains voltage to the laptop's ground.
If you disconnect the ground or your wiring doesn't have the ground, the EMI filter capacitors will bring mains voltage (albeit with a fairly big impedance) on the laptop's ground. It is not dangerous, but it may create some problem when the lapto
Re:I wonder if this has anything to do with (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I wonder if this has anything to do with (Score:4, Funny)
You stroke a cat, then pick it up by the tail and swing it around over your head at 3600 RPM (3000 RPM in Europe).
Re:I wonder if this has anything to do with (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I wonder if this has anything to do with (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I wonder if this has anything to do with (Score:4, Informative)
But this guy says he measured his voltage with the multimeter on AC. Static electricity is the buildup of charge on something capacitive (like you and me) and would be measured as DC. That is, if you could measure it at all, since we make pretty bad capacitors and any ordinary multimeter would quickly drain the charge away.