iPhone Tethering App Released, Killed In 2 Hours 434
tjhayes writes "The iPhone App Store released an application called NetShare that allowed the iPhone to tether a laptop to the internet. It was priced at a $10 one-time fee. After being available for approximately 2 hours, the application has disappeared from the apps store. What exactly are AT&T/Apple trying to accomplish here?" They are trying to prove what is wrong with DRM, and demonstrate why hackers want to jailbreak the iPhone.
I got mine (Score:2, Informative)
it works
Re:I got mine (Score:5, Insightful)
Until Apple decides to blacklist it and erase it off the phone on an iTunes update.
Re:I got mine (Score:5, Interesting)
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Then they get a letter about their malicious interference causing damages in the amount of $(cost of obtaining an additional wireless internet connection for the PC and ongoing subscription costs for the additional connection).
Since that is the least-costly alternative, to use of the purchased product that they illegally interfered with.
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Illegaly interfered with?
If you make an update you agree to the changes that come with it.
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"So sorry, the OS update broke it, nothing we can do"
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And here I was, getting an Apple to get away from the troubles Windows gave me...
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No, they will not. Stop strutting like a chicken and making a lot of noise, you'll never do anything and you know it.
What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Funny)
The U.S. is the only country that matters.
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Funny)
What, you're not suggesting that Americans are bad at geography? [youtube.com]
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Geography lesson for Americans. [youtube.com]
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get it.
Buy $600 phone.
Pay $60-90/month to use it.
And you can't tether.
That's what I'd be the most interested in anyways. WOW on the go would be fun.
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Informative)
I will now run away and hide.
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.
Why not?
What I use my Internet connection for is none of my Internet provider's fucking business, and if you believe otherwise then you're just a tool.
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Insightful)
The service you purchased on your phone contract says otherwise, and that's the problem.
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Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not at all, just the day where twenty-page "contracts" didn't come sealed in a box that you buy. If anyone actually approached consumers with a contract long enough to be read in the venue they marketed their product (ie, two-paragraph contract for something meant to be purchased in a retail-ish setting like a cell-phone.) people wouldn't consider them outrageous.
But no, people have the idea that anything they write down on paper is going to be binding just because they hand it to you, with no consideration for letting you read it in its entirety, or before the sale.
Sorry, but that's not behavior I respect. I could "not respect" it by quietly going home and being upset, or I could usefully not respect it by treating it as I would treat a phone I bought from someone I did respect. I follow common-sense guidelines, or rules for the benefit of everyone, but not rules for their sole benefit.
For instance, ISP rules about no servers. Yeah, uh huh. What's a server? Any protocol that happens to answer a port, regardless of the majority of the dataflow. And they forbid servers, not bandwidth hogging. So should I honestly follow along and not run SSH despite it not really being the problem and max-out my downloads on legit Linux ISOs, or should I try to play by the spirit of cooperation and not do anything (regardless of the rules) that would destroy the service for my neighbors such as using all the bandwidth?
If I lived by the rules of "no servers" anything else would be fine. Instead if I examine the situation and deal fairly with those involved, no method of harm is "okay" just because it wasn't mentioned.
So, in other words, you're a schmuck if you follow an abusive contract. Many people who enter offer contracts do so abusively and there's no reason to pander to that and not get a phone, or such. Just follow the reasonable rules, discard the rest. Until courts catch up with the idea that there are some things you can't contract for (not illegal, just unrelated to the apparent deal - misleading) people just need to act this way.
It was the software companies all individually including the EULAs in the box than convinced people shrink-wrap licenses are binding. Now we just need everyone individually ignoring provisions of contracts they didn't get a chance to negotiate to set the assumption that such contracts aren't binding.
The world would be a far better place if people acted based on the harm their actions would cause, NOT based on the rules that would be violated.
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm aware that there's a twenty page contract, but I'm also aware as a programmer that few people, including programmers, could take a twenty page document full of conditions and exceptions and properly parse it, being sure of not making any mistakes and of catching all restrictions. Especially standing in a store, without a day or two to make notes.
It simply is not reasonable to present people with a contract like that for things that don't warrant getting a lawyer. Thinking these contracts should be binding is like expecting you to hire a lawyer and do battle with Sony corp over your defective Walkman, as opposed to going to small-claims court where the rules are different and engaging them in a more level way.
We might as well practice law in Latin for all the good it does to hand a densely worded and intentionally confusing document, especially at a time that contracts usually aren't required - what looks to be a simple purchase at retail.
So no, even if I believed that these contracts would stand up to the type of challenge I would wage if I had the time/money, I still would not follow them because they are abusive.
As for Apple's ability to control what I do with my data, I do not believe they have the right to tell me I cannot tunnel games over an SSH connection to my phone, or web pages, or a packet whose ultimate destination might be someone else. They provide bandwidth, I use it. They can set limits on amounts, but not on the purpose of the data transmission. (Which would be like saying I can only use the iPhone for certain calls.)
Obviously nobody listens to a rule that says you can't take calls for your friends on your phone - they simply pay the airtime and use the device. Similarly, nobody would accept a rule saying you can call only affiliated pizza places. A limit on who you can forward data to is just a ridiculous.
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a fine line between voluntarily entering into a contract with a 3rd party on equal negotiation footing and agreeing to ridiculous contractual options because everyone who offers this service requires it. For example, air travel is theoretically optional, but a basic necessity of modern living. You can then either opt out of modern living, or you can wear the contractually-obliged shock collar [washingtontimes.com] in order to fly.
Certain bits of modern contracts are quite frankly immortal, and should not be enforced by the government. As a further example, non-competes can be a way of ensuring that your employees don't simply run to another company with your hard-earned knowledge. But they're also a way of ensuring that certain employees can never work in their field again, and cannot realistically get another job afterwards. This can be held over the employee to prevent them from leaving due to underpay, abuse, or failure to live up to bonus or other compensatory promises. And they're always entered into while the employee is hungry.
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Informative)
actually if you provide the 'last mile' in the USA, YOU are responsible for CALEA. Look it up, it's a damn scary law. If the first hop to the Internet is through you, it falls on your shoulders. This includes neighborhood wifi projects, the local coffee shop that offers free wifi, etc. Forget if it's infeasible and expensive, forget that some wifi gear is impossible to do what they ask (Meraki, I'm looking at you), it's the law and you're responsibility. Not the ISP you're connecting to, but YOU. What's this mean?
Big Brother exists and is able to tap everyone's intenet at the snap of a finger.
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We've gone from one King George to another. Escaping laws like this is the reason this country was founded!
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't get it.
Buy $600 phone.
Pay $60-90/month to use it.
And you can't tether.
That's what I'd be the most interested in anyways. WOW on the go would be fun.
Well duh and i'd like a pony too. You are paying for the service you are getting not the one you wish you were getting. Maybe someome will write an app called "net-sell". and I can go to coffeeshops and rent my iphone connection to all the people in the room.
I think the point here is that you are OVER paying for the product you are getting, when tethering is, as far as I and every techie smart phone user I know goes, one of the main points of getting a smart phone. The whole point of spending such a high monthly service plan is the data transfer.
3G speeds don't seem fast enough to tempt users away from using old-fashioned internet when it's available (WoW with more than 120ms lag wouldn't be THAT much fun). I don't really see iPhone renting being popular in coffee shops when up against the common free WiFi.
Isn't this just another example of Apple innovating on a product to improve it's user experience and make it exciting, but then giving in on something that just restricts us the consumer?
iPhone: AT&T => no tethering
iTunes: RIAA => DRM
Re:What you talkin' about willis? (Score:5, Funny)
It depends. Between about 200 and 900 ms, the lag is annoying as hell, but once it gets above that, it's kind of entertaining since what will happen is largely unpredictable. Firefights in Alterac Valley when everyone is severely lagged are kind of like slapstick comedy. Players fall down and die for no apparent reason at all.
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In both your examples, your evil companies have invested shit-tons of money into creating the economic pool you want to swim in. You are surprised that they want to impose rules to earn profits on their investment?
Without AT&T, you wouldn't have AT&T's phone service, and without AT&T's investment in the iPhone, you probably wouldn't have $199 access to an OS X-based smartphone that costs $700.
Without the RIAA, you wouldn't have artists getting million dollar contract advances to create albums, n
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Informative)
Tethering is not against AT&T rules in general. Tethering is supported on AT&T if you have a plan that allows it. In the past, all data plans allowed tethering, and that's the kind I have. Nowadays their data plans for PDA phones come in two levels, with and without tethering. The difference does not seem to be strictly enforced from what I have heard, but if you are caught tethering on a no-tether plan you may be subject to big extra charges.
I do not have an iPhone, and lack of tethering support is one of many reasons why. I occasionally tether with my Treo 750 and it works well.
Whatever the issue is with tethering on the iPhone, it would seem to be Apple and not AT&T. Many AT&T phones support tethering, but not the iPhone.
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I've always wondered why the phone companies try to make
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But then you couldn't call your data plan unlimited, could you? And you can't very well offer "unlimited" data if someone is actually going to take you up on that. Why, they might run something other than a tiny little web browser and e-mail program!
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But... I do know that it totally sucked in terms of speed and battery life. If they are banning tethering on the iPhone, I suspect it's battery-life related, since the battery life seems to be the 800lb gorrila in the room with that phone. [smugly pats B
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If you're tethering and worried about the battery just plug your iPhone into your computer.
I suspect that the real reason is that Apple bullied AT&T into providing an unlimited data plan for the iPhone and AT&T is terrified that someone's going to run bittorrent on it. From a perusal of their web page, the tethering option knocks you from unlimited data to 5GB /month.
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing that special about the iPhone - all phones are "software driven". With other tethering-capable phones, tethering is done by either Bluetooth (with a standard "Personal Area Network" profile), or by a USB connection (requires software on the tethered computer). On my WM6 Treo 750, I just start the AT&T-provided "Internet Sharing" application and tap "Connect" - done.
I think that many who gush about the iPhone and think it is unique have never used a smartphone before, of which there are many excellent examples on the market. What is unique about the iPhone is the way Apple decides what you are allowed to use it for.
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What is unique about the iPhone is the way Apple decides what you are allowed to use it for.
It's also unique from other smartphones in that it has an interface that isn't a complete pile of crap. Windows Mobile and the BlackBerry OS are uniformly terrible in their UI design.
The iPhone is the first handheld computer I've seen with a UI that is effective, intuitive, and responsive. Everything just works the way I expect it to. And I say that as someone who doesn't own a Mac and probably never will because I h
Re:What about outside the USA? (Score:5, Informative)
There are basically three buttons: YES, MENU, and BACK. It's much more modal than a touch-screen enabled device, but also much more usable for the simple tasks of phone, email, contacts, and scheduling. The whole device is very email orientated, and if that's what you do a lot of (and it is what I do), it's simply the best device on the market. The browser capabilities are roughly in line with IE for mobile, and the Google Maps application is a joy to use. Battery life is near infinite, even with a lot of constant email checking. There are also numerous shortcuts for power-users.
In comparison with the iPhone (I've used both), the iPhone is a lot slicker and has better font handling -- assuming you like your fonts smoothed. It's much better for showing pictures and video, and with GPS, the google maps function might actualy be more useful now. The iPhone has a better browser. But, battery life is far, far worse, and if you actually use your smartphone for work, that needs to be a real consideration. The soft keyboard, while "you can get used to it," and have it be "not too bad," is objectively inferior to a real keyboard for the portion of the population that has thumbs (eg most of humanity).
Bottom line, the iPhone is slicker and prettier, but the UI of the Blackberry enables users -- especially business users -- to do just as much, usually much faster, and for much longer, than the iPhone.
(And just for the record, I'm typing this on a MacBook -- I'm not a hater, the phone just isn't that great for me.)
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For instance I couldn't even read the slashdot main page on a windows mobile pone, but on the iPhone I am constantly checking slashdot including reading the articles and comments.
In the example above he probably gets good battery life because he only uses if for email. If I only use the ema
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Hmm...just struck me as a strange statement. Doesn't everyone put their phone on the charger overnight? It just seemed the common thing for me to do (not an iPhone owner)...I figured everyone charged or 'topped off' their phone nightly.
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Hmm...just struck me as a strange statement. Doesn't everyone put their phone on the charger overnight? It just seemed the common thing for me to do (not an iPhone owner)...I figured everyone charged or 'topped off' their phone nightly.
They should, but most people don't. They get a bit of a thrill seeing if they can beat their old record for the number of days without charge. They also enjoy forgetting to charge it, and then having a dead phone. It's the little things in life ...
Seriously, though, it's mainly because phone salespeople are incredibly ignorant about Li-ion batteries. They always tell you that you should charge from empty -- whereas in reality, it's the worst thing you can do for a Li-ion battery (see, for example http:/ [batteryuniversity.com]
HOW TO iPhone 3G aaswifi access point (Score:5, Informative)
First of all... the iPhone IS special. What it is doing in this app and in the link I'll provide below for jailbroken phones is not something lots of phones can do, if any others.
Second of all, this app was NOT a tethering app. AS you say, tethering is done by either BlueTooth or USB cable. What this app did is create an access point by sharing the cellular network over wifi. You don't "tether" your laptop to a wireless router, do you? Now that we're clear on that, I guess we have to live with everyone calling it tethering.
iPhone 3G as a wifi access point [ations.net]
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Hmm... (Score:2)
Maybe people realised a $10 _phone_ can provide the same functionality.
It reappeared last night! (Score:2)
It's back, you weenies (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's back, you weenies (Score:5, Informative)
It will most likely be back (Score:3, Informative)
We have already seen what happens when Apple wants to pull an app. Remember the Aurora Feint thing? That app had some issues with security and privacy, and it not only disappeared from the store, but from iPhones also.
This app may be going on and off the store, but until it disappears from iPhones and a credit shows up on those accounts, it will be back.
This is likely more to do with servers and/or databases syncing up or some such. I had the same thing happen trying to buy Crash Bandicoot Nitro Kart on
Re:It's back, you weenies (Score:5, Funny)
The story about it being back will show up tomorrow or the next day.
Slashdot is more of a weekly news/opinion magazine than a timely source of information. They should probably change it to "old news for slow nerds and propaganda about what our editors hate".
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$10 ? (Score:2)
My HTC handheld has Internet connection sharing (WM5) supplied for free in the base install. But I have to pay to use that functionality - not MS, but my ISP, which is T-Mobile.
I get 3 GB transfer per month for £10. I could get 1GB transfer free with my line rental, but understandably, they don't like you using that to feed a laptop. Not many people download huge files on a handheld, but a laptop is a
Nothing to see here... (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly are AT&T/Apple trying to accomplish here?
Quite simple:
1. AT&T (like other mobile operators) would like you to pay extra for the privilege of using your phone as a modem. This has nothing to do with Apple or iPhone: e.g. the same thing applies to my Windows Mobile smartphone on T-Mobile (UK).
2. Apple needs to play nicely with AT&T and its other mobile operators and can't be seen encouraging people to breach the terms & conditions.
3. Presumably, someone at Apple OK'd this software without checking the AT&T T&Cs. Someone else spotted the error and took it down.
Nothing to see, move along.
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No cell phone provider will allow you to tether your phone to a laptop without paying an extra fee. If the practice becomes mainstream, expect more bandwidth limitations or filtering.
Whats funnier... (Score:2, Funny)
... is the fact that Apple has been switching sides on this issue:
First they allow, two hours later its gone, then after a day they allow once again and eventually bham its gone. Cant they make up their mind whether to allow the App or not.
C'mon Apple think about all the fanboys who think you are perfect*.
* Before you mod me as troll do note I am typing this on my Macbook Pro and was about to get this app after work when it jsut disappeared again.
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Lets see how it turns out then!
What is wrong with tethering? (Score:2)
Why is it against the terms of use of the iPhone?
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Desktop/laptop applications are great wallowing bandwith users compared to phone applications. You don't realize it because you have plenty of bandwidth.
Cellular devices are sharing extremely limited bandwidth in each cell among all users. All the crazy background traffic from tethered computers drags down everyone's performance.
To belabor the point... my laptop regularly downloads dozens of RSS feeds without my input, when email arrives with stupid 19M powerpoint attachment, my email client downloads it so
AT&T had to ban this (Score:5, Funny)
AT&T had to ban this to protect the network, the same reason Comcast has to ban BitTorrent. I'm sure all of you understand. It is very important to protect the network from new, predatory applications or we will never have innovation. Just look at how the plain old phone network collapsed and became totally useless after the courts forced the telcos to allow their customers to plug in unapproved phones. Overnight people were plugging in 3, 4, 5 phones, vastly exceeding the phone rental limits. Some were even using newfangled wireless phones that let them consume Precious Network Resources from places the Telcos never planned on, such as the yard or bathroom.
3G bandwidth is shared, right...? (Score:3, Interesting)
So I want O2 (UK) to think very carefully before allowing tethering and opening up the shared resource to every possible application.
Right now I have unlimited data to my iPhone, but that will be no good to me if the network becomes saturated. (And yes, with an unlimited data plan, some users will run BitTorrent over a tethered connection just because they can.)
Apple's Hokey Cokey with the NetShare application? I can't explain that, but you can see where the conflict lies.
Allow the customers to do whatever they want, or protect the current experience for everyone.
That should not be an issue (Score:3, Informative)
There are many European countries selling 3G based "broadband Internet", with dedicated devices (not phones, just simple USB HSDPA modems that take a SIM card).
In those countries, the basestations should be more than capable of handling hogs (either by allowing the traffic, or by throttling abusers so they don't mess up everybody else's connections).
As for tethering... That's the main reason I gave away my iPhone 3G (I work for a mobile operator, got one at launch day, and gave it away to the person in my t
Official reply from Nullriver (Score:3, Informative)
N95 (Score:3, Informative)
I love my N95. Not only does it do everything the iPhone does (except have a touchscreen, which I don't want), tethering is a cinch via bluetooth or USB. I can install any application I want on it. Applications can actually run in the background. And it looks like Symbian might actually become an open-source OS.
Plus, it had 3G support from the start. And wifi. And VOIP. And a built-in GPS receiver. etc. etc.
Wow. I sound like an ad. I'm really just a satisfied customer.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Roger that! But when you do more than "not buy/use it" the fanboys (and girls) want to mod you as flamebait.
Apple is mostly image and branding. There is nothing Apple does that is unique. There is nothing in the iPhone that is unique. (You show me an iPhone, I'll show you a PalmOS phone and the major differences are fewer buttons/keys on the iPhone and more graphic intensive.) So what makes Apple better or different? It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?
When people at my office ask me about iPhone, I state where I see it falling short. You can't remove or replace the battery. So when the battery is useless, the phone is useless. That almost always gives people cause to think. But still 1 in 20 people will still say something like "I don't care! It's so cool!" I don't try to stand in their way either. If they can't see beyond the bling-bling, they aren't going to hear what I have to say about it.
Maybe the problem is all mine... I am just not as enthused by shiny stuff as other people are. I want it to work the way I want it to work and to use it the way I want to use it. If I can't, it's nothing short of an annoyance.
Ok, I will bite and respond (Score:2, Interesting)
1) Unique -- Uh, how about the user interface? One can be nit-picky about anything not being "unique." For example, there is nothing unique or original between a Ford and a Mercedes vehicle, I mean they both have wheels, seats, and use gas right? (sarcasm in case you miss it).
2) Battery -- Well, your usage is different. I have never ever purchased a second battery for a cell phone in all the years I have owned a cell phone. Your experience obviously is different. Oh, you do realize you can buy a replace
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Re:Ok, I will bite and respond (Score:4, Interesting)
So it's something to do with the UI - well what? Obviously it fails at basic UI functionality such as copy/paste, so there must be something it does wonderfully better to make up, right? Just tell us what it is, please...
The multitouch screen and the way it's used for zoom/pan is the only thing that makes the browser useable on such a small screen (relative to other handheld devices, maybe the screen is not so small, but it is compared to any real screen that you'd be used to browsing on).
I had an SE M600i that had a functional browser, but pages were either too tiny to read or too zoomed in to see where the text you want is. Changing the zoom level required going though a menu. While it was no doubt _possible_ to get the info you wanted, in terms of ease of use if you could easily call a friend who you knew was at a computer and ask them to look it up, you'd do that instead.
The ease of panning and changing zoom levels on the iPhone, although it seems like a trite toy, is actually the only thing that makes the browsing useable - in fact, it's quite nice to use (of course, no handheld device can ever compare to a full size screen in this regard, but this is as close as it gets). Add to this the fact that Safari on the iPhone renders almost any page well, whereas say Opera Mini on Symbian is quite easy to trip up. For example, the Citibank login screen has some Javascript (for a rubbish on-screen keyboard you have to use) that makes it impossible to log in from the SE, but possible on the iPhone.
I won't lie to you, the lack of copy/paste is quite annoying. The M600i had copy/paste and I did use it a lot. Also I still can't type quite as fast on the iPhone touch screen as I could on the M600i QWERTY keyboard (but close). But it's not a deal breaker - I'll take the lack of copy paste in exchange for a useable browser. It definitely has shortcomings. But hey, you asked what it was that was better so now you know...
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
No one will argue with you that Image is very important to Apple.
No one will argue with you that Image is important to ANY company marketing to consumer.
The point where you'll get nasty responses is when you claim that Apple is Only, or Mostly image. I was a Windows fanboy in HS because of the Image of Apple products (overpriced, underpowered, niche, etc.). When I finally gave them a try is when I realized that the Image I had of Apple was actually being espoused by people who hadn't used a Mac in years, if ever. I made the switch because I don't have to fight with the OS.
You want to argue that the Windows OS's are easier to use, more stable, more intuitive/consistent? Fine, you can argue that point if you don't like looking silly.
You want to argue that PC's are cheaper than Mac's? You've got a more valid point here, Macs usually do come at a ~10% premium. I think the increase in usability and not having to spend that money on virus/spyware prevention makes up for the difference, but I can see the other point of view.
You want to argue that the iPhone does nothing special? Fine, I can concede that point as long as we ignore the whole "usability" issue. I currently have a phone that has most of the features that everyone raves about on the iPhone, but I've never used them. It doesn't even occur to me to use them because I feel like I need a PhD in computer science with a specialization in programing for imbedded devices to figure out how to use the damn features. You don't have that problem? Good for you but the general public shares my frustrations and seem to have been able to figure out the iPhone without so much as having to by an "iPhone for Idiot's" book.
If you insist that everyone with a different set of priorities and judgement calls is being bamboozled by
the bling-bling
, then you're just showing yourself to be myopic and condescending to those around you. Maybe you need to consider that the reason people aren't listening to your advise is that their priorities differ from yours and not that they are slaves to Apples marketing material.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Interesting)
features that everyone raves about on the iPhone, but I've never used them. It doesn't even occur to me to use them because I feel like I need a PhD in computer science with a specialization in programing for imbedded devices to figure out how to use the damn features.
Hah, thank you. I own a Nokia e65, which is as expensive as an iPhone, but I simply do not feel like using these functions, because they suck with the interface provided...
I "accidentally" bought an iPhone (I had a site I had to format for iPhone so I had to get a phone), and after that I just kept the phone. Even though some features (such as net sharing with a laptop) are missing, I am still happier because YOU CAN USE THE DAMN THING .... unlike the 40 others ......
I also totally agree with your other points about Apple VS not apple, but I made the switch from Linux desktop (as I dropped Windows 10 years ago, even though I had to use it here and there)
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As I explored features like text messaging, I realized Samsung had no idea what UI meant. To delete a message, you had to scroll down a list of options to the second page of options before 'delete' was available. They prioritized 'file' and 'reply' higher in the list than delete, which is what you'll want to do with more messages
The big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, I'll bite. Funny thing is, I don't even have an iPhone, but I'm pretty familiar with another of Apple's products. I have a video iPod, and I absolutely love it.
It has little to do with it being an Apple product. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the company, precisely because it tries to be all glitzy. But just as frankly, my iPod is head and shoulders above any other mp3 player I've ever used. Sure, it's pretty, but it also has a very nice display. I find that navigating using the touch wheel is much easier than the clunky buttons on most other players. Getting music and videos is stupidly simple. Although I'm technically proficient and can rip CDs and DVDs, jump through hoops encoding and transferring stuff, I appreciate the fact that with my iPod, I don't have to. I hate the DRM that Apple imposes on content, but it works well enough for me, and when I need to get past it, hey, I can still rip CDs and DVDs and jump through hoops encoding and transferring stuff.
You say, "I want it to work the way I want it to work and use it the way I want to use it." Well, you've pretty much stumbled onto why there are so many Apple devotees. Sure, there are some fanboys, but for most of them, Apple's products just work. It's that simple. They don't have to rip and encode and transfer and configure and read manuals and learn rocket science.
The iPhone undoubtedly has some areas where it falls short. I've used an iPhone, and I'd love to have one, but the game-breaker for me is that I'd rather shove bamboo shoots under my fingernails than to subscribe to AT&T's service, and although I probably could, I just don't have the motivation to hack it. (Better things to do with my time.) I really don't see the battery as an issue. Honestly, in about 15 years of having various cell phones, I've never once had to replace a battery. I always end up getting a new one before my battery stops holding a charge. Is it a consideration? Sure, I suppose, but stacked up against other things, it's not a major one.
Apple isn't perfect. I don't know of many people who think it is. And yes, they have a reputation for being excessively stylish. But that doesn't change that their products are very, very good. You want people not to get caught up in the glamour and not to overrate their products; I'd ask you to do the same and not underrate them, either.
Re: (Score:3)
What PalmOS phone has visual voice mail?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Apple is mostly image and branding. There is nothing Apple does that is unique. It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken? Maybe the problem is all mine... I am just not as enthused by shiny stuff as other people are.
I support your point, Zune is equally good than an iPod because they have the same functionallity. *grin*
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that Apple's products have a feature-list that is notably superior. It's that their ease-of-use is notably superior. It's hard to measure 'ease of use'. You can't really quantify it. It's not like megapixels, gigabytes, or battery life... it doesn't really go down to numbers.
But Apple products tend to have no jagged edges... there are no common use cases where they are frustrating or annoying to use. Any product will have frustrating uncommon use cases, you can't avoid that... the battery is a good example.
Do you think the iPod succeeded just because people like Apple? Bullshit. It succeeded because it was better than the other players, and remains superior, if only by a slim margin, even today. Most of the other mp3 players have jagged edges that make them uncomfortable to use... a button that accidentally pauses the music if you have the player in your pocket... a stupid menu that takes 4 clicks to play music, but 2 to change contrast... a short battery life... too heavy... bad software...
It's not that Apple products are so superior in every way. It's that they have no strong weaknesses other than big price tags. No jagged edges. Removing jagged edges, removing frustrating use cases, is where Apple's design teams excel. It's their killer feature.
I'm not an Apple fanboy... I use Linux and Windows. I'm a gamer. The only Apple product I use is my wife's castoff 10GB iPod that I use as a USB drive. I know Apple products have flaws... nothing is perfect. And their brand image is part of the appeal. But brand appeal can't carry a bad product... their products are good, AND they have brand appeal. You can't stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's that their ease-of-use is notably superior. It's hard to measure 'ease of use'. You can't really quantify it. It's not like megapixels, gigabytes, or battery life... it doesn't really go down to numbers.
Well that makes it easy!
So I claim that the Iphone has the worst UI. You can't claim I'm wrong, because as you say, it's hard to measure "ease of use", so when I claim there are much better phones, you can't prove me wrong on this issue.
But seriously, that it's unmeasurable is a myth put out by those who what to claim that there's something special about the Iphone. This argument would never work for any other company's product (imagine it: "Who cares about all the flaws in Windows - it just is better. It's better in ways we can't measure or quantify, it just is" - would that be accepted?)
UI is quantifiable in all sorts of ways, for example, explaining how a particular process is achieved on different phones, or by comparing features that might make a process quicker. E.g., how do I copy text from somewhere to somewhere else?
There are plenty of examples of quantifying user interface on operating systems. E.g., menus at the top of the screen (as in AmigaOS, MacOS) are better that those not at the top (as in Windows), or proportional scrollbars give a better visual representation than non-proportional scrollbars (as in classic MacOS), or up/down arrows next to each other on a scrollbar (as in AmigaOS) are quicker to access than those at opposite ends on the scrollbar (as in Windows). Anyone who claims that UI is inherently something we can't measure is just grasping at straws to claim that their favourite expensive product is better, and they fail anyway, because I can just as easily claim my dirt cheap phone has the better UI - and by your own rules, you can't claim I'm wrong, because UI is unmeasurable.
Do you think the iPod succeeded just because people like Apple? ... Most of the other mp3 players have jagged edges that make them uncomfortable to use... a button that accidentally pauses the music if you have the player in your pocket... a stupid menu that takes 4 clicks to play music, but 2 to change contrast... a short battery life... too heavy... bad software...
The Ipod was a decent product. This topic is about the Iphone. Furthermore, you contradict your own argument. You've provided numerous examples of why the Ipod was better. So much for "it's unmeasurable"! So where are the same reasons for the Iphone?
It's not that Apple products are so superior in every way. It's that they have no strong weaknesses other than big price tags.
[Leaving aside a few basic functionality that even cheap phones have such as copy/paste, Java, MMS, video recording, and it only just finally got 3G.] If you agree that the Iphone is not superior, and it has no major weaknesses either, then that's the point: it's just yet another phone, and there's nothing special about it. Lots of phones fall into this middle ground category
But brand appeal can't carry a bad product... their products are good, AND they have brand appeal. You can't stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.
I'm not the one with my head in the sand saying "You can't measure UI, it just is better".
Brand appeal is important - this is shown by the very fact that you tried to claim the Iphone is better be saying how the Ipod was better. Your logic is that they're both "Apple", therefore the Iphone must be good too. That's judging not by product, but by brand. Do you think the Iphone would be getting even a fraction of media coverage it gets, if it wasn't produced by Apple? Brand appeal is everything to Apple. Consider how Macs today are nothing to do with older Macs (different hardware, different OS), but no one says "Well, Apple had to ditch the old OS because they finally realised it was so awful), rather, they're all considered to be the same platform.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple products no jagged edges? What the fuck?
Ok, I understand, they are smooth 'n all -- oh, you mean there are no USABILITY issues. Gotchya. And... wrong.
Example: Someone (my wife) using Windows 98. Really. With universal usb storage driver. Buys her sister an ipod and a CD to rip (audio book). The ipod is the little one with no display, 1gb of memory, cheap. Really, its a destructo audio book player. Limited instructions, maybe she missed the part about "itunes" but I don't think it was in the instructions!
Anyway, the CD is ripped onto the computer, and the ipod is plugged in. It shows up as a mass storage device. She copies the rip to the device, and charges. However, the ipod won't stay on! She RETURNS the ipod to the store as defective. The service guy says "Um, you need this application called iTunes" - Of course it is not supplied with the ipod. Too cheap to put a mini-cd in the packaging!
iTunes doesn't work with Windows 98. XP, maybe (I don't know). Fortunately, GtkPod is available for Linux (which we also use).
Let's break it down -
The ipod needs custom software, YET responds as a USB mass storage device - this is good design?
Apple doesn't put a cheap CD into the box with the software - come on, that's just bad - now an internet connection is REQUIRED.
iTunes doesn't work with Windows 98. Ok, I'll grant you this.
The ipod doesn't stay turned on if there is no magic itunes stuff on it. It has a nifty color changing led and all, but that isn't used to display any sort of distinguishing error - you have to KNOW the magic to get it to go.
And you think Apple doesn't have jagged edges... I would imagine that iTunes probably comes with the Mac computer, so it is probably seamless 'n all. But the chutzpah! I should spend $600 so a $50 product works?
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
"how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?"
I've owned Palm based devices for a while, and I can safely say 'objective' is in the eyes of the beholder. I remember trading in my ancient newton for a Treo...no longer needed to wear cargo pants to use a mobile device (I started off with a MP100..then 120 and finally a 2100 before realizing I wanted something smaller not bigger). The Treo was nice...but unlike the Newtons, I couldn't change batteries. Big deal. I kept a pocket charger in my bag for the few times I've ever needed to plug it in.
Since this time, I've had several smart phones. The iPhone was only because I needed something so that I could transport my music with me without having two devices in my pocket. No other reason...I held off for months picking one up even though I had Apple credit that I've had sitting around for a while (and the fact that I occasionally consult for the company).
Subjectively, it syncs better than any other PMP that I've used. This is a biggie for me.
Subjectively, I wish it had a keyboard, but at the same time kept the same sized screen, but without changing the size of the sucker. Oh wait, this is an either / or. I do wish I could sync up an external keyboard like I could my old Palm (though that was a full sized one...I'd rather have a BT capable thumbie thing). Again, it is subjective.
Batteries? I've only run out of juice once. It was after two days of not charging and using edge quite a bit. I've never carried a change of batteries...I've always found it easier to just charge (I bought two extra cables for $8 and have a car adapter with USB built-in). Besides, an external battery (that can actually charge the device and you can unplug it after it is done) is only like $30 from Belkin (I believe...or one of those companies).
I replaced the battery in my iPod and it was pretty cheap ($25) and actually pretty easy. I looked up the instructions on how to replace the one in the iPhone before buying it, and while a LITTLE more complicated, it can be done at home with the tools supplied in the battery kit.
Objectively, I have options. The lack of a replaceable battery does not make one a fanboy by ignoring this fact.
Beyond that, it is all subjective. Don't discard the subjective though...I'm a former computer science / programmer that went back to school several years ago to go for a therapy based psychology PhD (midlife crisis thing...looking for substance and not just another line of code). The geek side says that all the specs are the same. The human side tells me that this is NOTHING like the rest. Guess what? We should be looking for subjective and not objective (and that's why I'm not going to argue against your subjective arguments). I thought the interface on the old Palms were HORRIBLE. It felt like using the old Win 3.1 interface...but that they had actually thought it was innovative. The iPhone...fluid. Gesturing that was hinted at in older experimental GUIs and then abandoned were refined and made useful (yeah, back in the day, I had used a few geeky interfaces for Linux or Win that when I realize that I could have kept my fingers on the keyboard, it would have been faster than memorizing a dozen movements). But it just worked on the iPhone...and it isn't like they included EVERYTHING...just enough to do what you need.
And subjectively, it is the idea that Apple didn't try to put everything into this device that makes it useful. It is limited...and that is a good thing. This was the problem with my Newton that was infinitely more laptop-like than my palm...it tried to be a portable computer after a while.
The only thing I've concerned myself with lately is that I do engage in some 'extreme' sports...and while it is nice to be able to be up 10 stories and pull out the device to get another angle on the right route to climb, it is too fragile. Been thinking of picking up a second one that is rugged and that I can strap to my ass and not worry about banging it u
Obvious troll - name erroneous (Score:2)
Just in case you were serious (ha) you don't need an extra battery, for long trips you can just use any number of external battery packs that are no larger than that second battery you claim to desire.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:4, Informative)
So what makes Apple better or different? It's how people FEEL about Apple. If you disagree, instead of modding me flaimbait, how about citing some *objective* examples of where I am mistaken?
You're wrong. I don't know what you expect in terms of "objective" examples, but you're missing the point entirely. People don't like Apple products because of how the fell about Apple, they like Apple because of how they feel about Apple's products. And it's not really the "Oooooo shiney!" factor either.
I've always been a gadget freak. I've bought an inordinate number of computers in my life, some of which I didn't need at all (most of which I've built from parts). I've owned a number of Palms, and have been assigned Windows-based phones and Blackberries for work, and have serviced all of those devices as a helpdesk tech. With each of those devices, I was really excited to get them, and then over time I found myself leaving them at the office because, once the novelty wore off, they weren't really worth the trouble.
Lets start with Palm. I stopped bothering to keep up with their development a few years back when it became clear that there was no development going on. The OS is outdated, flakey, and slow. The web browser stinks, and is the definition of why people don't want to use a "mobile browser". Their e-mail client isn't much worth talking about, and instead of syncing with the email/calendar/contacts of the programs you use, they try to get you to use their crappy Palm Desktop.
Blackberry was a big step forward. It synced with Exchange, but needed some kind of specialty software to accomplish that (desktop redirector or Blackberry server). That was ok, though, because nothing else really provided that functionality at the time. The email client was plain text, but honestly I didn't mind much. Web browser wasn't anything much to speak of. So to sum up, it was the best PIM of the time when it first came out, but don't expect anything other than the PIM functions to be worth anything. Also, your Blackberry could be working and your Exchange server could be working, but there was always some kind of service in between coordinating between the two. If anything in there lost its connection (which it frequently did) then you stopped getting updates.
So when Windows-based phones started syncing directly with Exchange, I was eager to try those out. Sure enough the syncing was much more reliable, but the devices were slow and unreliable. They would crash frequently. I only used those on Verizon, so the upshot there was they were always loaded up with Verizon crap, and their tech support was always pushing us to use their syncing service instead of Exchange's native sync-- which caused us loads of problems. They also had a tendency to just stop working, the solution to which was to reset the device and set it up all over again.
The iPhone came out and I got one. I used to carry around a Windows mobile device, another cell phone (because I hated with Windows mobile device), and an iPod, and the iPhone replaced all 3. It was definitely less feature-rich than Windows (which has been fixed by the new firmware for everything I care about), but everything it did, it did without problems. I set up IMAP e-mail, and it worked without crashing and without fiddling with it. When e-mail came to my account, it came to my phone. There were no intermediate servers to worry about. The web browser was actually useable for normal websites. The PIM stuff synced through the cable to Outlook, and now it syncs over the air. AIM works fine.
The only problem I've had with the iPhone is that occasionally the battery runs out really quickly, but I've had that problem with every cell phone and laptop I've ever owned. Oh, and on the day the 2.0 firmware was launched, I was one of those unfortunate enough to upgrade right away, only to find that I had to reactivate my phone and the activation servers had crashed.
But other than that, it's been really
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, there are lots of things about my iPhone that I like better than my old Treo. There are also a few things I don't like as much to be sure. I wish it had copy/paste, an SSH client, and the ability to tether would not go amiss. These are things I miss, but they are more that made up for or I wouldn't use the thing. (Less the lack of copy/paste) The user interface is way easier to use and I find myself fumbling around looking for stuff a lot less. The built in mail system (especially now that it handles multi-media mail) is a lot more useful, though I'll grant you that the Treo had some decent third party mail apps. I've never found one quite as nice as the iPhone Mail app. The App store is a remarkably convenient way to find applications, though that is part blessing, part curse. Manly though, is the web browser. Blazer, to be as polite as possible, sucked ASS. Opera never worked on my Treo, it loaded but would never run more than a second or two. Safari is so nice that it almost negates the lack of tethering. I use the web on my phone a lot. I used to do so on my Treo some, but on this phone I can always use it to track down a fact, find a picture someone needs to see or just while away the time at the Doctor's office.
Is the iPhone perfect? Definitely not, but it does almost every thing I want, and does it all really well. If a well thought out UI, and apps that do what they are intended to do is "image and style" then I suppose you could accuse Apple of being all image and style.
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:5, Interesting)
A non-replaceable battery on your phone is a critical issue for those of us who use our cellphones frequently for business reasons. With my current phone, if I find myself on calls for four hours during during the day, and I'm worried about the battery running out of juice later in the afternoon, I can just slap in the spare, charged battery I lug around in my bag. I guess there are external chargers you can carry around and plug your iPhone into if you needed to, but then your phone rings and you're trying to do stuff with your cell plugged in to an external battery pack and whatnot.
A non-replaceable battery is just a poor design choice for a phone. It makes it much less functional for a lot of people.
The real deal killer for me is ATT. Not with a gun to my head. I need my telephone to ring when somebody calls me, not go into voice mail. I do carry an iPod touch, which I love, but if ATT offered a data only plan for people who weren't disabled, I'd grab an iPhone and sign up for that plan right away...
people just need to know (Score:4, Informative)
You don't like their terms, don't use their product.
Exactly. And in order to ensure that as many people as possible know about Apple's restrictions and the consequences of those restrictions before they get locked into a contract, we keep talking about it.
Incidentally, any of the S60 Nokias, many Palms and many Windows Mobile phones have no restrictions on tethering. They're also cheaper than the iPhone. And the Nokias use the same web browser as the iPhone.
Now, what exactly are you trying to say?
Re: (Score:2)
Even if Nokia used Safari (which it does not), it would still suck to use it on a screen half the size, and operate it with buttons.
I own an e65 nokia (quite pricey and feature rich business edition Nokia) and I changed it to an iPhone, mainly because of the interface (buttons, small screen) and the browser (which SUCKS IMO),
I actually happen to use my phone to check pages, email over GPRS, and use the phone as a browser many times over WIFI while listening to music.... oh well, now listening music on the E
Re:people just need to know (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What is the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
'Their' product? No, the phone belongs to the person who paid several hundred dollars for it. That's this concept we have called a 'sale'.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sure, you own the phone, but the app store belongs to apple. Apple is free to restrict whatever applications they want. You are also free to point out that you don't like their policy and try to convince people not to buy it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Sharing that connection with unrelated people would constitute theft of service (just like sharing your TV cable, for example).
Is it illegal for me to share my Comcast internet connection with my room mate with a wireless router?
So what is the difference between me sharing with them or my father next door?
Either way, the software wasn't intended to share out internet connectivity with strangers. It was designed to give the owner the ability to give their own laptop an internet connection.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, its not, its ATT protecting its revenue stream b y charging an insane (I believe it is $80 per month for the laptop connect plans), at which point ATT does not care whether or not you use a pc express card or a phone or usb dongle to use your laptop.
so are you (Score:2)
And those that purchase iPhones to "jailbreak" them are just as dumb. If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone. ... and we are going to continue to talk about what Apple's restrictions mean and that many other phones have more capabilities than the iPhone at a lower price.
If Apple were to set the standard for smartphones, with their restrictions, DRM, and stripped down functionality, smartphone users would be in trouble. Let's stop Apple now while there is still time.
Re: (Score:2)
If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone.
Fine, show me something else that's as useful as a jailbreak'd iPhone.
I'm not going to get one, but then, I have principles -- I'd really rather not support Apple in their effort to become worse than Microsoft. But from a purely practical standpoint...
You will get shut down in a minute anyways.
And I'd be back up in less than a minute. Do you really think Apple is faster than the "hackers"?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Fine, show me something else that's as useful as a jailbreak'd iPhone.
HTC Touch Diamond? Samsung i900? Sony X1?
I'm in the middle of trying to choose my next phone. I was going to get an iphone, but no DUN, HID nor A2DP put that one to bed real fast. Diamond or Raphael (with the keyboard) are my current picks. i900 was nice but 240x400, while nicer than the iphone's 320x240, is still kind of shite on a brand new phone. Sony looks *really* nice but again, proprietary connectors, pre-reviews foretelling
Re: (Score:2)
And those that purchase iPhones to "jailbreak" them are just as dumb. If you hate Apple's stifling environment so much, don't buy an iPhone.
Why go thru the hassle of hacking something that you know is against their rules and agreements?
Why buy some great piece of hardware that has awesomeness written all over it just because the manufacturer is a little silly? Why wouldn't you? There's so much potential for hacking in that little box it's insane. The iPhone isn't the only platform that screams, "awesome hacking here", there are many others including FIC's smart phone, nokia, palm and all the others.
Sure, Apple is restrictive, but who cares. If there's a way to hack around the restrictions for the joy of hacking, why wouldn't you? Of
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
I was quite shocked, but knowing apple, I shouldn't have been.
I was shocked to learn this about the original iPhone, since it was only since I switched to OS X that I started regularly using a phone for Internet access via Bluetooth. Apple made it really easy to set it up (there's a little Bluetooth wizard that does everything for you), and by not supporting this on the iPhone they have made sure that pretty much any other make of phone integrates better with their OS than their own phone.
My old (cheap) Nokia phone can sync calendars with iCal, sync contacts with Address Book, and be used as a modem, all via Bluetooth. The iPhone needs a cable to do any of these (and can't do the third one even with a cable).
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm more inlined to believe that this is likely at&t's doing not Apple. at&t charges extra for tethering on other phones and since the iPhone has a special plan for data, they don't want iPhone users going nuts on the 3G network and affecting the percieved speed of the network.
At&t (as well as the other 3 major US Cariers) have been known to intentionally cripple phones so that users can't take full advantage of the features.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My one button Apple mouse disagrees.
Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?! (Score:5, Insightful)
No offense, although I'll probably be moderated as a troll for this, but you're just an idiot, plain and simple.
It doesn't take a triple digit IQ to know the phone didn't have SSH and a terminal, so either you're trolling or really are an idiot if you bought the phone knowing that only to turn around and complain about it.
Blackberry also passes all e-mail and everything else through their servers. Again, troll or idiot.
And there was no secrets about Mobile Me.
So which is it? Troll or idiot?
Re: (Score:2)
Hell, the thing doesn't even have MMS. To be honest he probably bought it for it's internet connectivity, but then again every other 3G device is capable of this as well.
Good thing AT&T doesn't offer the device on anything longer than a 24-month contract, otherwise the grandparent might be cryin
Re:Why did I buy this iPhone!?!?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I need utility from my phone;
Perhaps you should have researched the phone before buying it. Hell, you could've read one of the dozens of articles here on slashdot with the words "iPhone" and "lock" in the title.
I didn't buy the damn thing to show it off.
So, you bought an iPhone hoping to use dozens of features that it doesn't support, but don't want it for the one thing it is good at?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)