AMD Bulldozer Will Bring Socket Shift To PCs 219
An anonymous reader writes "One of the most dreaded hurdles on the PC upgrade path is the CPU socket. If socket design changes then you'll almost certainly need a new motherboard when you do upgrade. This is an area where AMD has historically been much better than Intel. Intel tends to change sockets with each generation of CPU — currently there are three types out there, LGA 1155 for Sandy Bridge, LGA 1156 for first generation core and LGA 1366 for the performance Core i7 processors. AMD on the other hand has always tried to keep sockets across generations. When it releases its new Bulldozer core desktop processors later this year AMD is having to make a socket shift from the current AM3 socket to a new one called AM3+. This article discusses the change, issues like backwards compatibility and what the industry is doing to prepare for the socket shift."
Is it necessary? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Haven't the AM's moved to pads yet?
I hope they do with bulldozer. Makes things simpler.
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No, socket AMx is a pin grid array. BUT, AMD has moved to a land grid array socket for their Opteron CPU's. Those sockets are Socket F, G34 and C32. Its possible that in the future, AMD will move their desktop processors to an LGA socket. Especially if they crank the frequency of their Hypertransport links or newer and faster memory.
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It is (Score:2)
When you start to talk major architecture shifts, you get other requirements that change as well. Power, memory, chipsets, and so on. Part of that can be a new socket.
While Intel is rather overzealous with the socket change thing, perhaps doing it just to push motherboard sales, AMD has been perhaps too focused on compatibility, not enough with pushing forward.
Given that Bulldozer is supposedly a very big change, the new socket is likely very non-optional.
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There is certainly a point past which changing sockets all the time is just about extract
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the CPU package needs rather more pins/lands than it otherwise would
More lands? Because it has insufficient mana?
Not a hardware guy, so I had to look that up. What's the advantage of a land array over a pin array? (I did try to google it, and the one page I found talked about how pins bend, but is a bent motherboard pin better than a bent chip pin?)
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It forces motherboard manufacturers, rather than Intel, to bear the cost of a bent/damaged pin.
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Not only is it not necessary, it's also not true that AMD have been better – AMD have been releasing a new socket with each CPU arch... they've just not been releasing any new CPU archs!
Re:Is it necessary? (Score:4, Insightful)
In this economy why would you replace instead of upgrading when it's possible?
Ship of Theseus (Score:3)
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Well, the cost of 1 case and 1 motherboard. Also, the cost of drives because only the cpu and ram need to be upgraded. Also, since we're going from ddr3 to ddr3 (unlike am2-to-am3), only the cpu needs to be upgraded. So yeah, you save the cost of the motherboard, ram, drives, and case.
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Don't forget about the cost of the PSU.
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Also, the cost of drives because only the cpu and ram need to be upgraded.
How long can a user keep using one drive? I don't see a 10-year-old 40 GB drive going very far with today's workloads, which include high-definition video.
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Also, the cost of drives because only the cpu and ram need to be upgraded.
How long can a user keep using one drive? I don't see a 10-year-old 40 GB drive going very far with today's workloads, which include high-definition video.
I recently replaced my Phenom something something system with a Core something something system, and the hard drive was definitely one of the things I kept. Massive hard drive have been cheap for a really long time, and unless I replace my current one with an SSD, I plan to keep using it for a long time.
And as a direct response to your 40 GB drive comment -- I'm using a 55 GB drive on my laptop and it has almost 30 GB free (and that's with all of my music and homework). Of course I have a drive that small
But how many times? (Score:2)
AM3 Phenom2's are (nearly) top-of-the-line systems today. We're talking 2-year-old drives max
Say I refrain from upgrading the drives on this CPU upgrade. For how many more CPU upgrades or how many more years do you think one can refrain from upgrading the drives? It's certainly not five cycles of biennial upgrades.
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makes for lower MB costs as now they can make a b (Score:2)
makes for lower MB costs as now they can make a board that will run today's chips as well as the new ones.
Better then Intel where the new i3 / i5 / i7 (lower end) have limited PCI-e (usb 3.0 and other stuff cuts in to pci-e) vs the older boards and the High end I7 need there own boards.
Intel should of had higher end I7 and the lower end stuff use the same chipset / sockets / boards.
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Makes a difference to me; I have a 5 year old core2 system (E6300) that is generally just fine; 4GB of ram suits my needs as does the graphics card, and the drives are configured as I like.
Unfortunately, I cant shift either motherboard or processor without swapping the other, and its kind of obnoxious...
A fucking waste (Score:5, Insightful)
Agree. Who really cares anyways? Computers are so affordable that buying a whole new set instead of just upgrading only the CPU is normal fare.
It's a goddamn waste, though. It's sickening to throw out all that electronics, metal, and otherwise pretty good hardware just because someone wants to upgrade or because a component died.
At least with computers we have some choice. The other day, a pump went out on my pressure washer. Pump: $249. New pressure washer: $259 - WTF! So, I either pay out the ass for a new pump, or chuck out a perfectly good engine, frame, hose, nozzle, etc ...
OR Norelco electric shaver. New: $40. Replacement blades: $32. WTF!!!
I tell ya, our consumerist disposable society is really getting out of fucking hand.
And I'll refrain from the pollution and filling landfills with our disposable products.
I've stopped buying that shit - No more consumer electronics because it is THE worst offender.
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OR Norelco electric shaver. New: $40. Replacement blades: $32. WTF!!!
Feather Artist Club. More expensive, but the replacement blades are $20 a dozen and last 7-10 shaves--admittedly expensive. A Merkur HD and the Gillette 7 O'Clock yellow packs works pretty well, $30 for about 100 of those blades but $40 for the razor itself. Still, it costs about $25-$50 for a brush that'll last only 30 or 40 years and about $10 for a good puck of shave soap that'll last maybe a year, so eh.
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How wasteful you are, Bluefoxlucid. Why waste all those resources on a razor, blades, brush, and soap, when you could just become a greybeard like myself? About once a month, I take a pair of scissors to my face. God, or nature (take your pick) put that hair on my face - I'm certainly not going to cut it all off!! I might end up looking like one of those girly-boys on television!
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"It's sickening to throw out all that electronics, metal, and otherwise pretty good hardware just because someone wants to upgrade or because a component died. "
I don't throw the old ones out, I take those other people dispose of.
I collect organ donors, scavenge the dead for parts, then build extra PCs for barter (a good way to get all sorts of useful stuff AND future customers for more 'puters), gifts, workshop machines, and so forth.
I wouldn't buy a new retail proc without a motherboard and memory though.
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Or, you get a cheap generator head from Harbor Freight, keep the old hose and nozzle as spares for the new pressure washer, and use the old frame to hold the generator head. Voila, you've now got a generator.
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Cheap computers are affordable. But also cheap.
Costs can rack up once you build it yourself and want better components in some areas.
I've always had to upgrade my MB (Score:5, Insightful)
I've built a lot of computers and have never once reused a motherboard. MB cost is trivial and usually comes with improvements--such as a faster FSB/more memory slots, etc. So even if my old MB could accept my new CPU, I would probably still buy one. And since I stopped gaming, I upgrade so rarely now that my old MB almost never supports the new CPU anyway.
Are there really people out there who upgrade their CPU's so often that this is even an issue?
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No kidding. To my mind RAM compatibility is probably a bigger issue.
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Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB (Score:5, Informative)
The worst shift that I remember was AGP to PCIe - you have to buy new video card if you want a new motherboard (or better, buy a new CPU, replace MB, RAM and VGA just to be compatible) and gaming cards are not cheap. At least with ISA/PCI/AGP you could still use the old card while you save the money for a new one. While I have a few AGP video cards laying around, if my PCIe VGA failed, until I repair it or buy a new one, I'd have to use a PCI VGA made in 1995.
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There are plenty of $30-50 PCIe graphics cards available. Mind you, they're not good for modern gaming... but then, neither is your PCI VGA card. And what motherboard do you have that has both PCI and PCIe slots but not onboard video?
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Tyan Thunder K8WE
2xPCIe x16
1xPCI
2xPCI-X 100MHz
1xPCI-X 133MHz
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Sadly, it wasn't really available until a good time after PCIe began to go mainstream.
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I am just now preparing to replace that motherboard because the SATA stuff is crapping out and not booting successfully about 3 out of 4 times. I have a socket 939 dual-core Toledo with the ULi M1695/M1567 chipset that allowed for the AGP (Radeon 9800 XT) and later PCIe video (nVidia 8800 GTX).
While I didn't take advantage of it, there was the future CPU expansion slot that provided the upgrade path you mentioned but I never found anyone selling the actual socket. Still, an interesting and forward-thinking
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Last time I upgraded, I had to throw out pretty much everything. Old stuff was AGP/Socket A/DDR/PATA, and a 20-pin main power connector, and new stuff is PCIe/Socket 755/DDR2/SATA/24-pin.
OTOH if I upgrade again, I'll probably wind up keeping just the hard drive, since my power supply's wearing out and it's running at near-max capacity anyway.
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You could have kept the hard drive/CD drive from you old PC. New motherboards still have IDE connectors (then again, maybe current boards no longer do, last time I bought a motherboard was a few years ago).
But yea, that sort of "upgrade" pretty much means that you can just build a new PC and use your old one as a server or give it to someone who does not have a PC.
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I am younger and did not have a 486 PC with VLB.
But didn't 486 and Socket7 use the same memory (72pin SIMM just in different quantities) at least initially? I have a few motherboards that can use DIMM, but they also have SIMM slots.
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As soon as Bulldozer hits I plan on getting a dirt-cheap Phenom II X6 to replace my Athlon II X4 ... which will go back my old motherboard to make a new system for my kids ...
So a delayed upgrade, and still a 1:1 ratio of motherboard-to-CPU, but an upgrade nonetheless...
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I've been waiting to upgrade my Althlon II X2 2.2Ghz into a Phenom II X4^H^H X6 also. This news probably isn't good for us since there will be a lot of people on the same boat who would want to buy the Phenom II X6 as the highest-end CPU for their current-gen MB.
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By now it's the other way around for me. I upgrade when I think that my motherboard/computer needs new features. The CPU itself is hardly of influence, unless they bring out a much more efficient version (less TDP/watt). The last motherboard I bought was an Asus/Intel. I had problems with my AMD setup under Linux, so I specifically went out for a motherboard that was compatible with the 8GB of memory I had still laying around.
Besides all that, if there is anything annoying about upgrading a computer, it's t
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CPU fans, my god is there anything worse? I'm in here, between six important looking capacitors, with a screw driver on a tiny lip of metal, leaning all my weight on it. How is this a good idea?
I have upgraded several CPUs without switching out the motherboard but not lately. I've also switched out motherboards without getting a new CPU. Example: one time my case got some snow in it. I let it all dry out and the motherboard was the only thing that needed to be replaced.
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Depends on the fan/heatsink.
I usually use Zalman coolers that attach to the motherboard by screws (though you need to attach a new backplate to the motherboard so it's PITA if the computer is already built) and are quite good at cooling, but a bit expensive.
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And fo
No kidding (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it is more done out of a "Here's something we offer that Intel doesn't," and maybe an attempt to appeal to the budget oriented crowd that tend to buy AMD.
Realistically, you probably want to upgrade your board when you upgrade your CPU. There are all kinds of new technologies that come along, not just faster CPUs.
For example I just upgraded my system from a Q9550 to an i7-2600k. Now of course I had to upgrade the board just because the socket changed, but I would have wanted to anyhow. Off the top of my head, here's the new things my new board gives me:
1) DDR3 RAM. It has doubled the measured memory speed in my system. That matters a lot for a faster CPU, I'd not get nearly so much benefit stuck on DDR2.
2) USB 3. I currently have no devices that use it, but the industry seems real interested and I think it is safe to assume I'll be getting some soon.
3) SATA 3. Again, no big deal right now but I can see getting an SSD in a year or two and it would be useful then.
4) UEFI. Much more capable than an old BIOS. My particular board has a full command line built in you can boot to for doing diags and so on.
The board upgrade was well worth it, particularly the memory. No sense in staying on slower RAM when getting a high end CPU. That just hamstrings things.
Really, it is likely a waste of money to upgrade your CPU more than once every 2-4 years and in that time enough will change that you'll really want a new board anyhow.
For that matter, you could end up needing one anyhow, even if the socket was the same. A new architecture can require a new chipset and new voltage regulators which would need a new mobo, even if the socket happened to be the same.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using the same socket, but I don't much care if it changes either.
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2) It's also a hassle for people to build all-new if they are Windows users
Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB (Score:5, Interesting)
Are there really people out there who upgrade their CPU's so often that this is even an issue?
Since the early 90s my game plan has always been two step upgrades... buy the newest MB with the cheapest slowest CPU available (usually pretty good anyway). Then when the fastest CPU available is cheap (because its pseudo obsolete) I buy that chip and install it on the MB. Over the years I've had plenty of fun... Some boards need to have the BIOS flashed to support the most recent CPUs...
Looks like the price of AM3 CPUs will be collapsing in the next couple months, so I'll be upgrading the CPU.
In a couple years or so, lets say late 2012, I'll buy a fancy new "bulldoze" motherboard and the cheapest CPU available for it...
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For example you build a box for a MediaPC
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Uh, yes, there are. I know it must be shocking and completely incomprehensible to you that other people might be different than yourself, but these people do actually exist.
You must also not be aware of the cost differential between AMD-based and Intel-based motherboards. Intel-based motherboards are substantially more expensive. Go check out Newegg some time.
AMD uses their longevity sockets as an attractive selling feature, which some of their customers greatly enjoy. It gives their platform more flexi
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That is not actually an AM3 motherboard.
Here is how it normally goes:
A board with either an AM2 socket or an AM2+ socket can use any AM2, AM2+, or AM3 CPU. This board uses only DDR2.
A board with an AM3 socket can only support AM3 (or AM3+) processors. This board uses only DDR3.
What your board does: It has an AM2+ socket, but probably has both DDR2 and DDR3 slots. Thus it can use an AM2/AM2+ CPU with DDR2, or an AM3 CPU with either DDR2 or DDR3. It might not be able to use a new AM3+ CPU since those probably
No user-serviceable parts inside (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody really replaces CPUs. As of a few years ago, 80% of desktop machines were never opened during their lifetime. That's probably higher now, and higher still for laptops.
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There's still a market for enthusiasts that build their own machines from parts. You get exactly what you want that way. That's how I get new machines. Granted, I rarely upgrade a CPU without building a new box; I do tend to upgrade video card/memory at least once before I send an old gaming box to a family member.
This describes me pretty well. I want to pick specific components and features (which Intel processor, which graphics and SATA support, etc).
I have no interest in buying an off-the-shelf box with a motherboard and components picked amongst the lowest bidders paired with the most expensive Intel CPU available. I get a either a bare-bones system or motherboard combo from mwave (paying $10 for them to assemble and test), and I can upgrade to a screamer of a machine for $500 + graphics card (last time that
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I build my own PCs simply because I've had such miserable experiences with pre-built computers (much it through work), which usually sound good on paper, but are complete dogs in practice -- e.g., they have a fast CPU, but some sort of bottleneck elsewhere that makes them consistently pokey.
I don't spend lots of money, and I just pick simple "obvious" things, typically middle-of-the-road CPUs/components, avoiding the fastest, but the resulting computers seem to always feel vastly better than the prebuilt o
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Indeed, I rarely if ever have bought a processor to replace one I've already got, I usually build my own computer which necessitates buying a processor to go with it. It's just not typically cost effective to upgrade the processor in most cases as I usually buy something that's close to the max the board can handle. Under normal circumstances I ever need a much more substantial upgrade or a boost to the GPU or HDD.
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I replaced the CPU three times in my G3 Minitower Mac.
From a 233 MHz to 366 to a 433 over the years.
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Did you read parent post?
"Nobody really replaces CPUs."
Well I have, thats what it has to do with the topic.
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The title of your post is "No user-serviceable parts inside". How about technician serviceable parts. I'm the geek that gets called on to fix the entire family's computers, and from hard experience I can tell you that having a current AM3 processor that I can dump into a 5 year old PC will really bring things back to life, Also If I have an known good AM2+ board laying around you can test pretty much anything, and testing really helps keep costs down for non-business types.
Compare with an intel system whe
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Where I work, we recently were trying to figure out what to do with a quartet of older, out-of-warranty Dell PE2970 servers. They were perfectly good servers, but they were no longer covered under a maintenance contract, so using them for mission-critical services was rather like playing Russian roulette. They might last for another decade, or they might die tomorrow, and if they were to die tomorrow, we would have down t
Erm... nothing? (Score:2)
what the industry is doing to prepare for the socket shift
What is this supposed to mean? What is "the industry" to begin with? People who upgrade their PC are mostly hobbyists at home anyway. Corporate desktops and servers aren't upgraded, they are replaced when they've served their purpose. At least that's my experience.
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"the industry" is motherboard manufacturers, RAM manufacturers, etc..
Seriously speaking, there are very very few hobbyists would even think of building their own motherboards.
They merely buy stuff off the shelf and put it together. They're the consumers, not the industry.
Thank you for listening. :)
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Uh (Score:2)
Re:Uh (Score:4, Informative)
The following table represents what is possible in theory. Actual support does differ based on board manufacturer.
I suspect that the two I have marked with question marks will have a value of "NO", since doing that would allow AMD to drop support for DDR2 from the new processor designs.
Not all it's cracked up to be (Score:5, Insightful)
AMD's socket's might carry the same numbers, but the sockets don't always work all that readily. Often seems to be the fault of the motherboard maker, but I've had plenty instances where I bought a new chip only to find out that my mobo, though having a socket that is support by the chip, doesn't support chips of that power draw, or made at a certainly transistor size, or just past a certain point in manufacturing.
In the end, it's less hassle to just replace the board when you replace the chip either way. In my groggy old age (only 29, but I feel pretty old in computer terms :)) I just don't care about overclocking and whatnot anymore, and if you just want a barebones "plug it in and work at stock settings" board you can usually get one for under $50.
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I didn't always buy cheap boards, and noticed largely the same thing with more expensive ones. In the end if i'm going to have to replace it anyways I might as well not pay more than the minimum.
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That's not the way I've seen it though. In general, the $50 boards behave just fine for me, and aren't "flaky" at all. The only thing I've noticed on more expensive boards has typically been stuff that I might once would have used, but no longer. Better or dual ethernet, overclocking options, more slots and/or ports, etc. Overall, just not stuff I care about when I just want a process running at stock speeds. Sometime within the last 5 years or so computing just became more about what I do on my system
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Overreaction (Score:2)
That's why I keep buying AMD (Score:3)
I bought an Asus M2N-E motherboard several years ago for a single core Athlon 64 processor. Today, this same motherboard runs a Phenom X4 processor. And it will still hopefully serve other family members for some years when I finally switch it.
It may be silly, but I believe that all those "green aficionados" should be congratulating AMD. While Intel makes sure everyone needs to replace their MBs every year (and a lot of those go to the trash), AMD gives you another choice. Sure, most people just end up buying everything new again, but at least AMD gives you the choice.
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Agreed, my only problem is finding a new motherboard that supports the Phenom X4, nvidia SLi, ddr3 and usb3.
Oh back in the day (Score:2)
ASUS has AM3 mobos that support AM3+ with new BIOS (Score:2)
http://event.asus.com/2011/mb/AM3_PLUS_Ready/ [asus.com]
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... and this is why I always buy Asus. No release for my particular motherboard yet, but it looks like it's coming...
AM3+ (Score:2)
Really? AM3 PLUS?
They couldn't think of anything with less potential for confusion?
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It's basically the same as AM2+. AM[n]+ means support for both AM[n] and AM[n + 1] processors. Although in this case it's a little different as the processor is not an "AM4" processor, but I guess that's okay since it looks like it will work in (some) AM3 socket chipsets (800-series).
I have done it. (Score:2)
Warning, this is a Goatse (Score:2, Offtopic)
Seriously, do you still think that's funny in 2011? In a few years, maybe you'll catch up to the Rickroll.
Parent is goatse (Score:3, Informative)
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Please to post a link to this socket 423 or 478 or 778 to modern socket adapter.