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World's First Large-Scale Waste-to-Biofuels Facility Opens In Canada

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 months ago | from the powered-by-beer-cans-and-pizza-boxes dept.

Canada 96

Zothecula (1870348) writes Thanks to its extensive composting and recycling facilities, the city of Edmonton, Canada is already diverting approximately 60 percent of its municipal waste from the landfill. That figure is expected to rise to 90 percent, however, once the city's new Waste-to-Biofuels and Chemicals Facility starts converting garbage (that can't be composted or recycled) into methanol and ethanol. It's the world's first such plant to operate on an industrial scale, and Gizmag recently got a guided tour of the place.

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Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47302771)

I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. Many people will lose their jobs and some may lose their retirement savings. Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47302851)

I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. Many people will lose their jobs and some may lose their retirement savings. Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.

It's not about the fuel output, it's about greenwashing - spoken as an Edmontonian. (That self-reference makes me shudder, but I've lived here my whole half-frozen life). Oh, and spending money on large and unneeded capital projects - that's a very popular thing around here.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303627)

No you turd. It's about NOT FILLING UP ONE DUMP AFTER ANOTHER. Comprende?

Even if it does not break even on costs, it's still a win. How much is there lost because some stupid landfill makes an area inhabitable for hundreds of years. Go ahead, build your house on/near one. I dare you.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47307059)

My house is built on one, as are plenty of neighborhoods in plenty of cities. Hundreds of years? Not even closer.

This is not an argument to throw more away, just to point out that you're emotional and wrong. All of the landfill space in the US wouldn't even fill a decent fraction of Rhode Island.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

mcrbids (148650) | about 2 months ago | (#47307683)

It is true that landfills are often usable afterwards for parks and even houses!

It is also true that landfill locations have to be carefully surveyed for issues such as water runoff and geological stability in order to ensure that land fills don't pollute groundwater or leak toxic chemicals, etc. Nobody wants to live next to a landfill for the 10-40 years that they are open. They aren't pretty. They smell bad, and attract vermin. As we learn more about the real effects of land fills, we often find that even years after being closed, they are causing ongoing environmental damage that is very expensive. Many toxic "super fund" environmental disasters are previous dump sites.

And, if it's actually profitable recycle instead of dumping, are you really arguing that we should dump anyway?

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (4, Insightful)

quantaman (517394) | about 2 months ago | (#47302919)

I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. Many people will lose their jobs and some may lose their retirement savings. Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.

On the contrary although this plant is new they've been doing stuff like this for years, and it makes economic sense.

The problem with garbage is you have to put it somewhere. Landfills fill up quickly and use up otherwise useful land, and the further you ship it the more expensive and polluting it is to transport. The waste reclamation centre drastically reduces the amount you need to dispose of.

Eco-stations claim a lot of the electronic waste, the company that gets the material actually turns a profit on breaking them down.

Compostables get turned into topsoil, traditional recyclables get pulled out and turned into economically useful items, etc.

If your city thinks shipping wealth away burying it with all the resulting externalities is a better alternative then they can keep with their current setup. I prefer the Edmontonian model.

We also treat our sewage rather than dumping in raw into the ocean like some coastal cities.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47302955)

Alberta is the most conservative part of Canada, Quite the opposite of left wing anything.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (4, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 2 months ago | (#47303049)

I only wish more US red states were like Alberta. It would save us a lot of dough.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303099)

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303159)

APK, you're an Asshole, a Pedophile, and a Koward.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303213)

apk's not running away from a simple question PopeRatzo, you are http://linux.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47309523)

But he's still referring to himself in the third person, and still clearly is in desperate need of professional mental health care.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47318111)

Replying by ac posts now PopeRatzo you stunted little midget moron troll? Please: "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" http://linux.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303201)

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303107)

Alberta is the most conservative part of Canada

Then fuck them. Why are we spending money to help racists?

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

freezin fat guy (713417) | about 2 months ago | (#47306175)

Alberta is the most conservative part of Canada

Then fuck them. Why are we spending money to help racists?

Alberta also contributes more to our national economy than it receives from it. (unlike most red states)

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47306783)

Since when did conservative become a synonym for racist? Epic fail.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47320937)

When you stopped raping your wife?

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47306005)

Stereotypically, yes. I grew up in Edmonton, but lived for years in Ottawa and Vancouver, and I now, strongly, consider Ontario to be the most conservative province. Alberta is conservative in some ways, but they're also quite progressive and efficient and like to take risks like this. Ontario is stuffy and bureaucratic and incredibly resistant to change, and BC and Quebec are corrupt and rotten to the core by comparison.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 2 months ago | (#47303051)

We we had a similar plant in Ontario, it was shut down because of the air pollution. It is still the biggest, by far, smokestack in the city. Burning garbage does not make it disappear, and people would rather the garbage be put somewhere they do not see it, instead of blown into their faces.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (3, Informative)

quantaman (517394) | about 2 months ago | (#47303145)

We we had a similar plant in Ontario, it was shut down because of the air pollution. It is still the biggest, by far, smokestack in the city. Burning garbage does not make it disappear, and people would rather the garbage be put somewhere they do not see it, instead of blown into their faces.

I'm not sure if it will smoke since according to the article the stuff won't actually "burn"'

There, it will be heated in a low-oxygen atmosphere. This will cause its chemical bonds to break (without the material actually burning), releasing their carbon and hydrogen content to form what's known as syngas. This will in turn be cleaned up and converted into chemical products and biofuels – such as methanol and ethanol.

Either way if the emitted chemicals are what you're looking for you're not just going to dump them out a smokestack.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (4, Informative)

compro01 (777531) | about 2 months ago | (#47303225)

There's no smoke here, nor is there burning.

You're not burning the stuff, you're gassifying it, which is an entirely different thing. The latter uses a low-oxygen environment and no combustion.

From that gasification, you get hydrogen and carbon monoxide ("synthesis gas"), which you feed into a Fisher-Tropsch process, with the end result being diesel fuel you can pour into the city buses or sell or whatever.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303451)

The diesel fuel / alcohol / gasahol is then burnt, so you are still burning garbage, but indirectly.

This will add to greenhouse gasses . . .

landfills take a lot of land, and the garbage has to be shipped there.

This plant might be cheaper than that solution, but It won't reduce the greenhouse effect, rather it will add to it.

Perhaps more stringent controls on packaging, plastics, etc might be better for reducing trash in the first place, but that takes political will, and real social change. Everything that we make should be recyclable. This is the only way that it will work in the long run.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303885)

> The diesel fuel / alcohol / gasahol is then burnt, so you are still burning garbage, but indirectly.

No, not at all. You're burning gas. Garbage combustion has a lot of nasty byproducts that this doesn't have.

> This will add to greenhouse gasses . . .

No, it's carbon neutral because the gasses would escape into the atmosphere anyway in the landfill, this is just a controlled process to actually retrieve the gas. Besides, *not* burning it would increase the greenhouse effect more because all of these gases are very potent greenhouse gases. You want to burn them to release less potent carbon dioxide.

> Perhaps more stringent controls on packaging, plastics, etc might be better for reducing trash in the first place, but that takes political will, and real social change. Everything that we make should be recyclable. This is the only way that it will work in the long run.

We need all of the above solutions, including this. There's no silver bullet.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47304751)

No, it's carbon neutral because the gasses would escape into the atmosphere anyway in the landfill, this is just a controlled process to actually retrieve the gas.

Plus if you dumped the stuff in landfill you'd have to run the vehicles with some other fuel. GP is dumb.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

compro01 (777531) | about 2 months ago | (#47306121)

This will add to greenhouse gasses . . .

No, this actually reduces it. This material would otherwise decompose into methane, a decidedly more potent greenhouse gas. This lets you shift that to CO2 and also reduces the need for some other source of fuel.

landfills take a lot of land, and the garbage has to be shipped there.

Hence this plant, which, in combination with composting and recycling programs, reduces the amount of stuff that goes into the landfill.

Perhaps more stringent controls on packaging, plastics, etc might be better for reducing trash in the first place, but that takes political will, and real social change. Everything that we make should be recyclable. This is the only way that it will work in the long run.

A good idea, but that has nothing to do with this. This process is for stuff that it is impractical to compost or recycle, such as wood or fabrics.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303381)

The one in SSM, ONT is still going

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (3, Informative)

Mashiki (184564) | about 2 months ago | (#47303447)

We we had a similar plant in Ontario, it was shut down because of the air pollution.

Depends which one you're talking about, if it was the one in London Ontario, it was shut down because NIMBY's threw a fit over it. But it used to heat the LHC complex, and now they use natural gas and had to install a boiler complex for all the buildings. They wanted to build one in Ottawa and the same thing happened, and they wanted to build one in Woodstock. The one in Woodstock never happened because NIMBY's who don't freaking live here threw a hissy fit over it. The city, and the general population was in favor of it.

Funny enough, Oxford County much like the city of Woodstock is heavily conservative. And every time some city like London, or K/W(both heavily liberal, pro-green, etc) throws a hissy fit over opening a new plant it ends up coming here. Fastest growing city in Ontario for a reason.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305307)

London ... heavily liberal

+1, Funny

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Mashiki (184564) | about 2 months ago | (#47313087)

+1, Funny

Truth hurts? London is distinctly liberal, in fact they elected a mayor who was a former liberal MP(who was recently charged with breach of trust and other offences), when there were better candidates on the field. And they've done the same with regional councilors.

This. (4, Informative)

DarthVain (724186) | about 2 months ago | (#47305547)

I live in Ontario and work in an associated field.

I do not know the actual specifics of this case, but it usually is NIMBY that causes the problems. Ontario has several large groups of "green" activists and pour money into lobbying and lawyers, when in reality they are mostly home/cottage owners associations fronting as environmental groups. Shutting down wind power due to OMG bird strikes, and the like when really they are just looking after what the value of their properties are worth in the area. A garbage processing plant? Yeah you can bet it got shut down by land owners protecting their self interest and investments.

We had a big gas plant scandal a few years ago where some were supposed to be built, NIMBY and the resulting political pressure had the government shut the project down, costing taxpayers like 2 billion dollars. These things have to go someplace. Isn't the ONE job of the state to look after the interests of the many at possibly the expense of the few? Looking after the few at the expense of the many seem a bit corrupt.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47306039)

The Ottawa plasma gasification plant died because the trial project was late, over budget, and didn't produce much gas, so they did not proceed with building a full scale plant. Please do your research before spouting nonsense in the future.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Zeromous (668365) | about 2 months ago | (#47306705)

It's apparently not over yet. but kind of sad they haven't hit any of their milestones.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (3, Informative)

techno-vampire (666512) | about 2 months ago | (#47303077)

Landfills fill up quickly and use up otherwise useful land...

Not always. Here in Southern California, landfills often start out as canyons or other places that can't be effectively used. When they're full, they're covered with topsoil and allowed to sit until everything is stable, then they're re-purposed as parks, golf courses or some other recreational facility. Of course, not everyplace has that option.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 months ago | (#47304971)

Not always. Here in Southern California, landfills often start out as canyons or other places that can't be effectively used. When they're full, they're covered with topsoil and allowed to sit until everything is stable, then they're re-purposed as parks, golf courses or some other recreational facility.

Because water hazards aren't enough, we need golf with fire hazards.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47316883)

Don't forget the ROUSes that come along with such things as fire swamps.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305285)

Why waste so much potentially useful entropy just to make artificial soil which later cannot be used as fertile land?

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303203)

> The problem with garbage is you have to put it somewhere. Landfills fill up quickly and use up otherwise useful land, and the further you ship it the more expensive and polluting it is to transport.

My god you are a slack-jawed, drooling, unthinking dullard. Available landfill space is a political problem, not a physical problem. Anyone who has driven (or flown) cross-country (in either the USA or Canada) knows there is no shortage of space to put shit.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

kwbauer (1677400) | about 2 months ago | (#47303533)

They turn a profit because they get paid to use their "raw" materials. Other "mining" operations manage to turn a profit while having to pay to get raw materials.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47304409)

> Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.

Because tar sands (like oil) is a FINITE resource, id10t! Unless you can pull some tar sands out of your @ss, that's reality.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

kesuki (321456) | about 2 months ago | (#47302933)

tar sands produce a vile sludge that can literally be used like agent orange.

methanol and ethanol production from municipal waste is taking trash out of the 'too dry to rot too much gas to oxidize' landfill and instead produce useful chemical some of which can be safely used to operate machinery like cars, and produce fewer noxious fumes.

if the world was run by clones in thought of you, there wouldnt be a living being on this planet for at least half a million years -- assuming that the colapse of organic life including human life by using pestacides that kill bees (after which humans would live another 4 years) and all the carbon heating the planet from all the pricks driving cars using up the worlds 200 year supply of fossile fuels at the consumption and production levels predicted for humans, based on your view that making a city 0 impact on the environment is some how wrong, and that consuming every molecule of carbon in fire until the skys rain acid like they do on venus, is the 'right thing to do' well we would never survive the consumption of all the fossil fuels, as bees would die first.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (4, Informative)

MacTO (1161105) | about 2 months ago | (#47302979)

Oddly enough, you are talking about a part of Canada that known for its petrochemical industries and right wing ideologues ...

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (3, Interesting)

quantaman (517394) | about 2 months ago | (#47303037)

The province is conservative but Edmonton is fairly liberal (as are most cities). I actually took a tour of the waste treatment plant a few years ago and it was pretty impressive (and smelly). Back then they were talking about grinding up the non-recyclable/compostable bits and using them for asphalt filling as a way to get over 90% non-landfilled, I'm not sure if this is any of the same material they're talking about here, I don't think I'd want my highways degrading.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

mirix (1649853) | about 2 months ago | (#47303175)

Liberal by Alberta standards, I guess. You guys even have one MP that isn't a conservative!

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47304601)

"Conservative" by Canadian standards...in the US, these conservatives would be Democrats... LOL

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47306537)

35-40% of voters in Alberta are not conservative, but because of First Past the Post, this number is not represented in the elected seats.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303291)

The province is conservative but Edmonton is fairly liberal (as are most cities). I actually took a tour of the waste treatment plant a few years ago and it was pretty impressive (and smelly). Back then they were talking about grinding up the non-recyclable/compostable bits and using them for asphalt filling as a way to get over 90% non-landfilled, I'm not sure if this is any of the same material they're talking about here, I don't think I'd want my highways degrading.

I have lived here for the last 16 years, Edmonton is not LIBERAL by ANY Standard, we are a very conservative community and there is broad difference between our conservatism and U.S. conservatism. And while the the world is fed MISINFORMATION by the media all over the World. We are very environmentally minded progressive, we look for solutions to our environmental problems rather then follow the illogical bankrupting and unrealistic termination of all activity by the environmental groups. We probably have one of the most stringent environmental and safety legislation and compliance around, there are multimillion dollar industries and jobs centered around this aspect, however our province is still subject to the human element, and where you have humans you have mistakes and complacency and non-compliance from time to time. And no we don't have a perfect system, but we are leaders in research to solve our environmental and safety issues with our industry. Can you say any of this about China or Russia, or any of the OPEC Nations?

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303975)

Edmonton is less conservative than rural Alberta. Calgary is less conservative yet. So it's a matter of perspective. The mean political position of Alberta is right of where the mean position of the Canadian average is. But within Alberta, Edmonton's mean political position is left of that of the rural part of the province and Calgary even moreso.

But don't be alarmed... I have friends who fled even 'liberal' (relatively) Calgary for the left coast because Calgary was too conservative and redneck for their tastes.

One of the great things about this country is it has such a diversity of opinion and so many great places to live that allow people to locate a place that somewhat matches their ideology and disposition.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305595)

Edmonton is less conservative than rural Alberta. Calgary is less conservative yet. So it's a matter of perspective. The mean political position of Alberta is right of where the mean position of the Canadian average is. But within Alberta, Edmonton's mean political position is left of that of the rural part of the province and Calgary even moreso.

But don't be alarmed... I have friends who fled even 'liberal' (relatively) Calgary for the left coast because Calgary was too conservative and redneck for their tastes.

One of the great things about this country is it has such a diversity of opinion and so many great places to live that allow people to locate a place that somewhat matches their ideology and disposition.

Lived in both Edmonton and now Calgary....Calgary is defiantly more conservative then Edmonton.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47308477)

I married into a rural family, and have been surprised to discover that most of the Alberta rural "conservatives" I meet (Christian farmers, truckers, oilfield servicemen) are not at all like the US Conservative stereotype. I had to learn NOT get an older farmer started on climate change; they go on and on about the quantity and variety of birds, bees, bugs, critters, and plants that aren't around anymore because of all the confounded pesticides,herbicides, and GMOs they have to use to stay competitive.

Oh, and our highways and roads degrade like crazy anyway from the deep cold/warm cycles we get in the winter.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

DarthVain (724186) | about 2 months ago | (#47305561)

I was thinking the same thing. Kind of funny. Though at the same time, makes a bit of sense. Probably one of the few places where they can afford to do projects like this. Good for them.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (1)

phorm (591458) | about 2 months ago | (#47308383)

Yeah... based on the previous comments it basically seems that they're able to get away with it because the province of Alberta has less whiners (NIMBY's) who block any useful large project that doesn't "look pretty". As an "oil province" they're pretty used to fairly large non-pretty industry.

We have similar issues getting stuff implemented in my province.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (2)

nospam007 (722110) | about 2 months ago | (#47304639)

"I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. "

I get my electrical power since a dozen years from such a waste to power plant and I'm not even in Canada.

Hell, lots of European countries can't get enough waste from their own population and have to _buy_ it from other countries to generate power.
Landfills are only used for the unrecyclable stuff from demolished buildings, concrete, bricks etc.

Re: Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47316089)

Bullshit...it is a serious industrial scale facility to make biofuel.Edmonton has for twenty years the largest composting facility on the planet. Patents on the giant co poster etc and one can actually take a tour and see it running. Just because you Americans swill energy and think nothing of it, cut out the use of coal officially but it sneak it for export to others at the same time, does not mean that we here in Canada do not take the environment seriously.

Re:Jerk off material for the Greenies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47317509)

Dick Cheney ..
Is that you??
Have a heart .. no wait .. yours came from a pig .. never mind

Numbers (4, Interesting)

CanadianMacFan (1900244) | about 2 months ago | (#47302903)

Would like to see the efficiency numbers for the process. They just say how much garbage goes in and how much they expect to get out but not how much energy it's going to take or how much pollution or garbage is going to be resulting from the operation.

Also when it comes to the 60 and 90 percent diversion rates I think the article is talking about the residential waste stream. From the pictures that is where the garbage for the plant is coming from. I'd like to know if the plant is going to take anything from the commercial or industrial streams. Those diversion rates are usually much worse.

Re:Numbers (1)

Russ1642 (1087959) | about 2 months ago | (#47306153)

Well somebody's got to be the first at bat. Hopefully others will follow and they'll do better, and so on. Nothing is perfect the first time despite what your abstinence-only educator told you.

It is a liberal hoax! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47302983)

Extracting energy out of garbage instead of shoveling it into the ground and dumping it into the oceans? Sounds like some kind of liberal conspiracy.

Countdown to the odor of stench... (1)

bswarm (2540294) | about 2 months ago | (#47303001)

This was tried nearby, it was shutdown and dismantled about a year after it opened due to the stench that lingered across town.

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (3, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 2 months ago | (#47303089)

Have you ever smelled an oil refinery? How about a fracturing operation? A soybean processing plant? A meat processing plant?

How about Lake Erie in the decade before the EPA was established?

If there's such a thing as "clean coal", then I'm pretty sure they can figure out a way to have "clean garbage".

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303137)

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47309581)

Seek professional help

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47318073)

Looks like the runt midget troll PopeRatzo needs help since he ran from a simple question http://linux.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303193)

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (1)

Zeromous (668365) | about 2 months ago | (#47306707)

This is quite insightful. I think people forget how much we've managed to clean up north america over the past 40 years.

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47318095)

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" http://linux.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]

Re:Countdown to the odor of stench... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303127)

Good for them. I'm currently in the house with doors and windows closed because our garbage dump will not do anything to stop the smell.
I've been driven indoors 3 times in a week. Complaints fall on deaf ears when they have to spend money to fix the stink that bothers a few thousand people.
City council seems oblivious to it.

Conversion not burning (2)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 2 months ago | (#47303261)

Depends where they built it. If it is on the east side there is a large refinery there and I cannot imagine it will out stink that! Also it is not burning the rubbish but is converting it into useful chemicals so it is not clear that it will produce anything like the same levels of odour and pollution that burning refuse will cause.

Nothing But Trash Pics (1)

Scottingham (2036128) | about 2 months ago | (#47303083)

By guided tour they mean 11 pictures of piles of trash and 2 pictures of the outside of the plant. From a distance.

Seriously, where are the shots of the reactors? The end product?

What solvents does it use? Is it done in a vacuum?

Re:Nothing But Trash Pics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303135)

Guided tour --> a couple photos we took of the outside of the building from hundreds of feet away

Re:Nothing But Trash Pics (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 2 months ago | (#47303341)

By that they mean by a guided tour, what ever a private for profit corporation will willingly release with regards to operations, associated trade secrets and anything the public might perceive as being risky. Note this is a for profit exercise so will problems arise, certainly, that short cuts will be taken to maximise profits is inevitable with corporations the only regard to consequences being. Can management disappear with the bonuses prior to getting caught? Will the penalties be less than the fines? Can lobbyists make adjustments to regulations?

Still worthwhile doing but probably being privatised will be a long term mistake, there are simply so many things you can no longer trust private for profit corporations with and the larger the corporation the worse it is. No matter how well run today, some douche psychopathy will pop up backed by a multinational finance corporation and buy the company based upon increasing profits by taking basically criminal short cuts with safety, staff conditions, maintenance and secretly dumping toxic wastes. Not maybe, not if but when.

Re:Nothing But Trash Pics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47304001)

Interestingly, I'd have said that I distrust the private sector due to their profit motive, but lately the public sector's performance has been such as to make me distrust it even further due to graft and corporate cronyism.

The best combination is probably private service delivery with serious and diligent public inspections. Of course, interests in the public sector (of a selfish nature) and in the private sector (out for profits) will constantly work to soften or remove any regulation that increases costs.

Like all of these situations, no solution is perfect over time. All erode as time goes by into flawed, exploited and broken operations. Then we get sick enough of this and rejig them.

Human civilization in a nutshell.

Re:Nothing But Trash Pics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47312945)

The first part of the plant (smelly inside, does not smell outside) is here [youtube.com] . The new part (where diversion goes from 60% to 90%) is shown here [youtube.com] . The last part is a commercial company / city partnership.

I guess it's something (2, Informative)

HRbnjR (12398) | about 2 months ago | (#47303109)

As an Edmontonian, I'm glad to see our municipal government take an initiative like this, but it's sure not enough to alleviate the fact that the tar sands in our province are the worldwide epicentre of global warming and all our power comes from burning coal :(

Re:I guess it's something (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303299)

As an Edmontonian, I'm glad to see our municipal government take an initiative like this, but it's sure not enough to alleviate the fact that the tar sands in our province are the worldwide epicentre of global warming and all our power comes from burning coal :(

Well, 300km to the South, your neighbor city, Calgary, gets a good lot of it's power from the wind farms down through Pincher Creek and area. It runs our C-Train amongst other things. If you're nice, perhaps we can cut you a deal and sent some up to you? Considering your gas is typically $0.08/L cheaper than ours at all times, want to work out a deal?

Re:I guess it's something (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303303)

And OPEC and Russia, and China, they don't even compare to our environmental initiatives nor compliance. Their Oil is 100x more dirty then ours by far including the Oil Sands.

Re:I guess it's something (1)

slackware 3.6 (2524328) | about 2 months ago | (#47305203)

You really are an idiot, go "idle no more" or get your facts straight. About 0.15 per cent of global GHG emissions comes from oil sands development. Hardly the epicentre of global warming you idiot.

Re:I guess it's something (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305347)

Cut the poor guy some slack, he's from Edmonton. Picking on him because he can't get his facts straight is like punching a toddler to take his candy.

Re: I guess it's something (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305889)

Listen up, hippie. If it wasn't for the tar sands our province would be in serious trouble. Your comments on the tar sands being the epicenter of global warming is laughable and completely untrue. Canada isn't even a blip on the radar compared to China, the US, and Russia. On behalf of real Albertans: STFU

Re: I guess it's something (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | about 2 months ago | (#47313393)

On a per capita basis, Canada is far worse than China or Russia and about in line with Canada (as of 2005, so right now I have no reason to suspect that things have changed drastically). Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... [wikipedia.org]

And the tar sands are helping to supply those US numbers.

It may be very true that if not for the tar sands, the province would be in trouble. That doesn't make it a good thing.

Personally I think it's a bit much to blame Alberta for the entirety of the oil industry. Yes, they are a major seller, but it's a convenient externalization (even for Albertans, since it's "other Albertans"). There's also buyers, and they are everywhere. Especially Alberta :), but everywhere.

No, I'm not an Albertan.

Re:I guess it's something (1)

pokerdad (1124121) | about 2 months ago | (#47307375)

Wrong, less than half of our power comes from coal and it falls every year. As of November 2013. 5,690 MW out of 14,003 MW generated in Alberta came from coal.

People love to rag on power deregulation, but it resulted in a lot of new power plants being built, and they have all been greener than what came before.

Re:I guess it's something (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47312737)

You are a village idiot. True. Complete. Village. Idiot. The oil sands (not tar sands, oil sands), contribute less than 5% of Canada's GHG emissions. Canada's GHG emissions are tiny compared to Europe, or the US or China or India. The worldwide yelping from green nuts target the oil sands, but there are 1,000,000 places in the world where oil is extracted, and cars are worldwide. Also, if all our power comes from burning coal, what about the Bighorn Dam, and the wind power farms (go down highway 21 and try *NOT* to count at least 500 windmills). You are a lying tool, an idiot, and a green nut.

This is not the world's first large scale plant (2)

Vidar Leathershod (41663) | about 2 months ago | (#47303131)

This was being done in the 1970's, if I am not mistaken. It was called EcoFuel II (tm). It might be the worlds first in terms of this exact process, but there have been plenty of other "garbage to fuel" processes in the past.

Re:This is not the world's first large scale plant (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303315)

Actually no, not anything like this scale, remember it is the FIRST LARGE SCALE, they did not claim the worlds first, they claimed the worlds first large scale. I was hoping it would be based on this http://www.wired.com/2012/01/ff_trashblaster/ Plasma Garbage Incinerator, but from what I can tell it is chemical based the one we have.

Re:This is not the world's first large scale plant (1)

Vidar Leathershod (41663) | about 2 months ago | (#47304341)

1800 tons per day is not large scale? Did you use teh Google before posting?

More sorting... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303195)

What is unique is that the garbage gets sorted just like the recycling gets sorted. Though this is not new for Edmonton they have been doing this for a while. I hate when people call it burning garbage. It is gasification of garbage. The gas is collected and sorted just like oil is separated. Unsellable gas still needs to be burnt off though.

Toronto will be running into a garbage wall soon. They have a good organics processing plant. But, they can't find enough buyers for the recyclables. Garbage is still shipped to the US.

I thought this was about Hairy Hill ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303671)

I thought this was going to be something about Evan Chrapko's venture out at Hairy Hill.. also near Edmonton.
http://growingpower.com/

He doesn't avoid the fact that his investment in turning manure into energy plays along with his last name. He's among the most successful, driven and hardest working people I've ever met. He and Elon Musk would get along quite well.

J

Re:I thought this was about Hairy Hill ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47305165)

They are also supporters of the PC government so they get millions in grants, didn't think they used their own money did you? They even get tax breaks on their property taxes from the county if they want to buy a fancy boat but are a little short. They even were given a helicopter (to fly premier Stelmach around) because what feedlot/ethanol plant can get by without one. Bunch of scum is what these people are slurping at the takpayer trough.

First in the world: BS! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47303931)

The city of Linköping in Sweden has been doing this since 1997. Here is a paper written by that time about what they are doing and how they want it to develop further: http://ec.europa.eu/energy/res/publications/doc2/EN/LINKO_EN.PDF

Since then it has grown to a major operation where they even have to import waste from other European countries (which they get paid for :) ) and they sell a LOT of gas. It is also financially profitable through means that are explained in that paper.

Isn't Sweden doing this already, on large scale? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47304615)

Large scale, as in even importing biological waste from their Norwegian, Finnish and Danish neighbours? I believe I read an article about this a year ago.

Not so new.... (1)

syntheticmemory (1232092) | about 2 months ago | (#47305465)

My grandfather was a chemist and worked in the lighting gas industry in the 1920's. The city of Halifax recycled waste into methane for street lighting.

What about Norway and Sweden? (1)

Bloody Peasant (12708) | about 2 months ago | (#47306181)

Granted they're not turning the stuff into fuel, but they are generating electricity [slashdot.org] from their garbage (and they want yours, they're running out). It would be interesting to compare the carbon/pollution/energy profiles of the two approaches. Wonder if the Scandinavian way is cleaner?

Sewage processing (1)

phorm (591458) | about 2 months ago | (#47308413)

I remember reading about some projects that attempted to create fuel from processed sewage/bacteria. IIRC they planned to have some test plants in eastern Canada (Ontario?). Anyone know about those

Garbage-in-gas-out seems like a good plan. If we could also get "human waste in, gas out" then we're doing even better in terms of managing the nasty side-products of "civilization"

Not incineration, not gasification, this is a biol (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47310409)

The record needs to be corrected here. This is NOT gasification, incineration, or any other chemical or consumptive process. It differs from these processes including those used in Sweden. This is anerobic digestion. The inputs are manure, plant waste, good waste, or even human waste. The outputs are literally enriched fertilizer fluid (available for direct use and requiring no additional mined phosphate or potassium), and biogas. By monetary value, the fertilizer is most valuable to the local farming community followed by the value in waste management savings (and that of participating businesses who are willing to sort their trash), and then finally the biogas itself. Biogas is a blend of primarily methane with a small amount of hydrogen (also combustible) and nitrogen (biologically and chemically inert) gases, and some trace amounts of hydrogen sulfide. Hydrogen sulfide has an odor, but it's almost never released into the air in a well-managed plant. The purified gas is identical to natural gas, the same stuff harvested from the tar sands. However, biogas does not require you to harvest and pipe it from thousands of miles away. You make it in the same place where the raw materials are produce, in the cities. This natural gas can be compressed for use in automobiles, trucks, city fleet vehicles, or to power municipal utilities such as the nyc steam system powered by the Newtown Creek wastewater treatment plant.

I applaud Edmonton for being the first to implement this brilliant technology at such large scale. The US has 40 such smaller scale plants in CA and Quasar Energy out of Ohio trying to implement food waste collection and CNG production through the Midwest and northeast US. Not surprisingly, you Canadians are leading us in the right direction. Cheers!

Latest step (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47312691)

The gas to biofuels part is the new part. The 60% recycling part has been around for about 10 years. They take household waste, strip out the metal wood and plastic, add poop (fecal waste), and add bacteria. It takes about 30 days and some industrial grade mixers, and you get very nice black soil coming out. They have already been taking methane out of *that* process, de-watering it (there are a *lot* of chemical engineers here: there are 3 large refineries here), compress it, and use it as fuel for vans and trucks (even in cold winter). One clown posted "give it 6 months and see if its still running..." and my thoughts were "its been running for 10 years and you think its going to die in 6 months?" Also the whole thing is run cash neutral to cash positive. The costs of running a fleet of garbage trucks are common to other places with 1.5 million people. You don't have dumping fees, you don't have long drives. You have expenses running the sorting and mixing equipment (but not that much). You can sell the high quality soil that comes out. You save money on fuel because of the ethane/methane used to power vehicles. Again, that has been running for 10+ years. Its just the last chunk that is new (going from 60% to 90%). They wouldn't have built a large-scale plant if they didn't already have outstanding results from several small scale plants.

I think they deserve some credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47321299)

This technology is developed by Enerkem, if you want to look it up. The plant in Edmonton is the first commercial scale facility but, according to their website, there are already 2 new facilities planned, 1 in Canada and 1 in the US. They ave been testing this stuff for 10 years ...

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